Dennis Hackethal
Member since June 2024
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Some say that there’s a soul from the moment of conception; that the soul has a right to life.
#269 · Dennis HackethalOP, 9 months agoSome people say the demarcation point should be the heartbeat.
The heartbeat has no particular epistemological or moral relevance.
Defensive force and security services are productive endeavors. Retaliatory force is only part thereof, and defense involves the employment of scarce resources, thus economic principles apply. (LoganChipkin)Chipkin)↵ ↵ If the government tries to step outside the free market, that’s tantamount to pretending there’s magically no scarcity for the government. But in reality, the government still has to attract talent to fill government jobs, pay that talent, and use scarce resources. If it tries this *without* the error-correction mechanisms the free market provides, it will do anything poorly.
#23 · Dennis HackethalOP, 11 months agoGovernment creates consent. Without government, there is no consent.
Two people out in international waters, or in space, or anywhere else with no government, can still have consensual interactions. For example, they can decide to share a sandwich. That’s still consensual if neither party has a preference that arbitrarily steamrolls over the other.
#23 · Dennis HackethalOP, 11 months agoGovernment creates consent. Without government, there is no consent.
There are already consensual interactions between people that are nonetheless unregulated. Sex, for instance.
#233 · Ante Škugor, 9 months agoI don't think it's a right to have other people take care of you. The cutoff point is a moral one, but rights are both moral and political institutions. You're right that it'd be ideal for the moral and political institutions to align but it's hard to do that. That's why I think there's some truth to the argument: "Even if abortion were immoral it should be legal"
This seems like a response to another idea (presumably #230 and/or #232), rather than a top-level idea itself. I suggest you move this idea and break it up if necessary. Mark it as a criticism to whatever ideas you end up criticizing. But first, familiarize yourself with the current state of the discussion. Ensure that you’re making new points. These sound like points others have made beforeyou in this discussion.you. Read the entire discussion before you continue. If these points are indeed duplicates, either think of *new* criticisms or address existing criticisms. Don’t repeat the same ideas if you can’t address preexisting issues with them.
This seems like a response to another idea (presumably #230 and/or #232), rather than a top-level idea itself. I suggest you move this idea and break it up if necessary. Mark it as a criticism to whatever ideas you end up criticizing. But first,ensurefamiliarize yourself with the current state of the discussion. Ensure that you’re making new points. These sound like points others have made before you in this discussion. Read the entire discussion before you continue. If these points are indeed duplicates, either think of *new* criticisms or address existing criticisms. Don’t repeat the same ideas if you can’t address preexisting issues with them.
This seems like a response to another idea (presumably #230 and/or #232), rather than a top-level idea itself. I suggest you move this idea and break it up if necessary. Mark it as a criticism to whatever ideas you end upcriticizing.criticizing.↵ ↵ But first, ensure that you’re making new points. These sound like points others have made before you in this discussion. Read the entire discussion before you continue. If these points are indeed duplicates, either think of *new* criticisms or address existing criticisms. Don’t repeat the same ideas if you can’t address preexisting issues with them.
#234 · Ante Škugor, 9 months agoI don't think it's a right to have other people take care of you. The cutoff point is a moral one, but rights are both moral and political institutions. You're right that it'd be ideal for the moral and political institutions to align but it's hard to do that. That's why I think there's some truth to the argument: "Even if abortion were immoral it should be legal".
Saying the baby has a right to be taken care of in such and such a manner means nothing if there's no one there to do the taking care of. One of the requirements of being a good parent, I think, is wanting to be one. So by forcing the mother that was irresponsible to carry to term might actually ruin her life, and make the baby's one not worth living.
#231 · Dennis HackethalOP, 9 months agopractically, i think the best we can do now is viability outside the mother
if it's viable and there are people willing to adopt [then] the mother shouldn't have the right to kill it
if there's no one willing to take care of it i don't see how anyone can demand for it to not be aborted.
Someone’s rights can’t depend on whether other people are willing to take care of them. That doesn’t make any sense. You said yourself (#225) the determining factor is personhood. Pick one.
practically, i think the best we can do now is viability outside the mother
if it's viable and there are people willing to adopt [then] the mother shouldn't have the right to kill it
if there's no one willing to take care of it i don't see how anyone can demand for it to not be aborted.
#228 · Dennis HackethalOP, 9 months agodepends whether the mother took measures to not get pregnant, if she did and still got pregnant - less responsibility
She was neither forced nor tricked. She took an action which she knew (or should have known) comes with certain risks. The risks materialized. That doesn’t make her any less responsible.
On the contrary, per my suggestion, she had six weeks to monitor whether she was pregnant. That’s long enough to miss her period, which is a huge warning sign she’d have to be extremely dishonest about with herself to just ignore. During those six weeks, she could have unilaterally decided to get an abortion safely and with impunity. She instead chose to ignore her pregnancy, evade it, not do anything about it, whatever.
Separate ideas
> % source: Ante Skugor > % link: https://x.com/splitkostanjeu1/status/1811341088730357906 > depends whether the mother took measures to not get pregnant, if she did and still got pregnant - lessresponsibility↵ ↵ She was neither forced nor tricked. She took an action which she knew (or should have known) comes with certain risks. The risks materialized. That doesn’t make her any less responsible.↵ ↵ On the contrary, per my suggestion, she had *six weeks* to monitor whether she was pregnant. That’s long enough to miss her period, which is a huge warning sign she’d have to be extremely dishonest about with herself to just ignore. During those six weeks, she could have unilaterally decided to get an abortion safely and with impunity. She instead chose to ignore her pregnancy, evade it, not do anything about it, whatever.↵ ↵ Her body, her choice, *her responsibility*. #171, #172responsibility
#133 · Dennis HackethalOP, 10 months agoParents don’t owe their children anything […].
Yes they do. They are responsible for bringing a helpless being into the world who depends on them.
depends whether the mother took measures to not get pregnant, if she did and still got pregnant - less responsibility
She was neither forced nor tricked. She took an action which she knew (or should have known) comes with certain risks. The risks materialized. That doesn’t make her any less responsible.
On the contrary, per my suggestion, she had six weeks to monitor whether she was pregnant. That’s long enough to miss her period, which is a huge warning sign she’d have to be extremely dishonest about with herself to just ignore. During those six weeks, she could have unilaterally decided to get an abortion safely and with impunity. She instead chose to ignore her pregnancy, evade it, not do anything about it, whatever.
#225 · Dennis HackethalOP, 9 months agoi agree that morally the cutoff point should be personhood, though i think that probably happens later than the development of nervous system
Personhood presumably does come in later on, but we don’t know exactly when. Since the development of the nervous system is the earliest possible point, that’s the time we should choose if we want to be careful.
#107 · Dennis HackethalOP, 10 months agoI’m pro abortion but I have some pro life in me.
Banning the abortion of a zygote seems ridiculous. So does aborting a seven-month-old fetus.
Why not go with: you can abort until the nervous system develops.
Clearly, a fetus without a nervous system can’t be sentient and thus can’t be a person, right? And as long as it’s not a person, it doesn’t have any rights.
According to https://www.neurosciencefoundation.org/post/brain-development-in-fetus, “an embryo’s brain and nervous system begin to develop at around the 6-week mark.” And: “At as early as 8 weeks (about 2 months), you can see physical evidence of the brain working (the electric impulses) as ultrasounds show the embryo moving.”
i agree that morally the cutoff point should be personhood, though i think that probably happens later than the development of nervous system
Clarify what abortion means
If, contrary to #221, premature delivery *is* possible and others want to “save the baby and take care of it”, then sure, go ahead as long as there are no downsides for the baby. But that’s not abortion, so I don’t see how this stance is a criticism of my abortion stance. Abortion means the baby dies.#220 · Dennis HackethalOP, 9 months agoit's not a reason in one direction or another, if other people are willing to save the baby and take care of it that seems like a win-win
If, contrary to #221, premature delivery is possible and others want to “save the baby and take care of it”, then sure, go ahead as long as there are no downsides for the baby. But that’s not abortion, so I don’t see how this stance is a criticism of my abortion stance.
#220 · Dennis HackethalOP, 9 months agoit's not a reason in one direction or another, if other people are willing to save the baby and take care of it that seems like a win-win
You had originally described (#201) a situation where the fetus “is not yet capable of surviving outside the mother (even with all the technological knowledge of medicine)”, meaning premature delivery would be impossible.
#204 · Dennis HackethalOP, 10 months agoThat the baby can’t survive outside the womb sounds like an additional reason to carry to term, not a reason not to do it.
it's not a reason in one direction or another, if other people are willing to save the baby and take care of it that seems like a win-win
It does when those others are responsible for your position. See #133, #138, #172, #203.
#216 · Dennis HackethalOP, 9 months agohaving rights doesn't mean you get to be supported by others that don't want to support you
#202 · Dennis HackethalOP, 10 months agoA baby with a nervous system may be a person and thus have rights.
having rights doesn't mean you get to be supported by others that don't want to support you