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  Dennis Hackethal criticized idea #5311.

Ah, I marked my agreement in #5292 a criticism to neutralize yours, since I corrected #5293. But I should have revised it to additionally have the existing criticism no longer apply. I'll make a new revision with that change.

#5311​·​Tyler MillsOP, 1 day ago

Since you agree that a revision was necessary, I’ve submitted a counter-criticism of #5292 so that this branch of the discussion tree is consistent (#5323). Ideas are immutable; opening a new branch won’t automatically fix broken branches.

The branch now reflects that your action was rational.

Generally speaking, when a revision addresses a criticism, we don’t submit a counter-criticism.

Let me stress ahead of time that this kind of housekeeping may not seem the most fun, but is indispensable in keeping consistent discussion trees. We can learn to enjoy it. We benefit from this kind of housekeeping by being able to look up which ideas we can rationally adopt.

  Dennis Hackethal addressed criticism #5292.

Well the device may deal with some noisy neighbors, but sure, a criticism overall. Edited.

#5292​·​Tyler MillsOP, 5 days ago

Revision done; criticism not needed.

  Dennis Hackethal commented on criticism #5183.

@edwin-de-wit recently asked Deutsch about this:

… hard to vary can also be a property that you don’t want. Sometimes they say that complicated systems are just so entangled that they’re no longer changeable. You could call that hard to vary but it’s not a property you pursue.

Deutsch’s reply:

Quite so. So hard to vary is about explanations, not about end products. So the end product should be easy to vary, if you want to. But it should be hard to vary in the sense that you don’t want to.

#5183​·​Dennis HackethalOP, 17 days ago

Naval, who’s inspired by Deutsch, says good products are hard to vary, too: https://nav.al/good-products

Gives iPhone as example.

  Tyler Mills addressed criticism #5320.

Interest 2: This measure of productivity is suspect. By whose yardstick is a day not productive enough? This is itself the source of the anxiety. Just work as much as we can each day without coercion. Asking for any more is foolish.

#5320​·​Tyler MillsOP, about 21 hours ago

Interest 1: It's my yardstick. I want to accomplish more, and I know I can (and we do, often, by staying up "too" late). And staying up is working as much as we can each day without coercion. It's stopping and getting ready for bed that requires coercion!

  Tyler Mills criticized idea #5318.

Interest 1: Stay up past 16 hours and do more things! Accomplish more, have more fun today and feel like the day was more productive. Some loss of sleep is okay for the sake of accomplishing more, earlier in life.

#5318​·​Tyler MillsOP, about 21 hours ago

Interest 2: This measure of productivity is suspect. By whose yardstick is a day not productive enough? This is itself the source of the anxiety. Just work as much as we can each day without coercion. Asking for any more is foolish.

  Tyler Mills commented on idea #5317.

Per #5229, here is a debate to find a common preference for the two interests in me.

#5317​·​Tyler MillsOP, about 21 hours ago

Interest 2: Go to bed around hour 16, to get the full 8 ours we require for good health and functioning! We regret when we sleep too much less than 8 hours, and the cumulative health impact causes us some background anxiety (which is itself unhealthy).

  Tyler Mills commented on idea #5317.

Per #5229, here is a debate to find a common preference for the two interests in me.

#5317​·​Tyler MillsOP, about 21 hours ago

Interest 1: Stay up past 16 hours and do more things! Accomplish more, have more fun today and feel like the day was more productive. Some loss of sleep is okay for the sake of accomplishing more, earlier in life.

  Tyler Mills posted idea #5317.

Per #5229, here is a debate to find a common preference for the two interests in me.

  Tyler Mills commented on criticism #5243.

This doesn't rule out blue light from other sources disturbing your ability to wind down and fall asleep.

#5243​·​Benjamin Davies, 9 days ago

True, I have a lamp that is warm in color, but probably still has some blue in it. I'll consider looking into redder lamps. I still suspect mental stuff is the main issue.

  Tyler Mills commented on idea #5245.

https://youtu.be/boWSKR7OrUw?t=627&si=V4UOiSZym6i0ZhjO

From 10:27 onwards, this video goes over a variety of diet related elements that affect sleep. Might be useful.

#5245​·​Benjamin Davies, 9 days ago

Checking this out, thanks!

  Tyler Mills addressed criticism #5241.

Diet isn't ruled out just by comparing a large dinner with an empty stomach before bed.

You've said that you often put off eating and struggle to eat as much as you intend to. If you're regularly under-eating or going long stretches without food, that may be keeping adrenaline and cortisol elevated into the evening, making it harder to wind down, fall asleep and stay asleep.

That could also explain why you're physically tired but still mentally alert and able to keep working at night.

#5241​·​Benjamin Davies, 9 days ago

Good reasoning. But I don't go long stretches without eating (no more than 4 or 5 hours), and my weight is stable (or growing, depending on goals), so I can't be undereating in general.

  Tyler Mills revised criticism #5293. The revision addresses idea #5234.

Revised again because #5234 has been addressed and no longer applies


Interesting. But I would guess it only works well for constant sounds. The sensor has to read the waveform to create one that cancels it. Will not do much for short impulses of sound, which are the main offender (my current neighbors are okay, for the record).

Interesting. But I would guess it only works well for constant sounds. The sensor has to read the waveform to create one that cancels it. Will not do much for short impulses of sound, which are the main offender (my current neighbors are okay, for the record).

  Tyler Mills commented on idea #5299.

Not to be nitpicky, especially since you ended up agreeing, but #5234 now has a pending criticism (yours), yet you acted on the idea. (Or rather, on the suggestion implied by it.) Acting on an idea with pending criticisms is technically the definition of irrationality on V.

I’m purposely not marking this a criticism so the flags don’t flip.

#5299​·​Dennis Hackethal, 3 days ago

Ah, I marked my agreement in #5292 a criticism to neutralize yours, since I corrected #5293. But I should have revised it to additionally have the existing criticism no longer apply. I'll make a new revision with that change.

  Dennis Hackethal addressed criticism #5183.

@edwin-de-wit recently asked Deutsch about this:

… hard to vary can also be a property that you don’t want. Sometimes they say that complicated systems are just so entangled that they’re no longer changeable. You could call that hard to vary but it’s not a property you pursue.

Deutsch’s reply:

Quite so. So hard to vary is about explanations, not about end products. So the end product should be easy to vary, if you want to. But it should be hard to vary in the sense that you don’t want to.

#5183​·​Dennis HackethalOP, 17 days ago

But HTV is also about art (BoI chapter 14).
A piece of art is a kind of end product. And we could write code to produce art.

  Dennis Hackethal revised criticism #5233. The revision addresses ideas #5306 and #5307.

What’s wrong with using melatonin indefinitely?

AFAIK it creates no physical dependence, you don’t build a tolerance, and it’s cheap. What’s not to love?

AFAIK it creates no physical dependence and you don’t build a tolerance.

  Dennis Hackethal addressed criticism #5233.

What’s wrong with using melatonin indefinitely?

AFAIK it creates no physical dependence, you don’t build a tolerance, and it’s cheap. What’s not to love?

#5233​·​Dennis Hackethal, 10 days ago

I was wrong to submit this criticism in this form; it should be only about the lack of dependence. Otherwise the criticism chain is inverted for #5203.

  Dennis Hackethal addressed criticism #5233.

What’s wrong with using melatonin indefinitely?

AFAIK it creates no physical dependence, you don’t build a tolerance, and it’s cheap. What’s not to love?

#5233​·​Dennis Hackethal, 10 days ago

What’s not to love?

#5203 already says: causes people to wake up early. (Can corroborate.)

  Dennis Hackethal posted idea #5304.

~All previous methods of preference formation focus too much on what the ideas say; on their content.

Nobody really knows just how simple an idea is (Occam’s razor) or how likely (Bayesianism), for example. In some cases it’s obvious how ideas compare, but in others not so much.

Adherents of those epistemologies are all fooling themselves into thinking they’re being rational when really they’re still acting on whim. Just fancier whim.

Focus instead on how the ideas relate, on the structure of the current state of the discussion, and preference formation gets much easier and simpler.

Then you can easily see which ideas you can adopt and which you can’t. You can even see exactly which criticisms you’d need to address to change someone’s mind, say.

Beautiful.

  Dennis Hackethal criticized idea #5288.

It strikes me that I may have some confusion around compromise. There's an idea (from who/where? Gemini says Brett Hall...) that a compromise can actually be bad, because it is a new theory that no one was advocating for. So if it fails, it's harder to learn from and hold anyone accountable for. Yet, to resolve our procrastination and other hangups (and many problems in life), it seems like finding a common preference is the thing to do (and it seems like it works). But isn't that the same as compromising?

#5288​·​Tyler MillsOP, 5 days ago

… it seems like finding a common preference is the thing to do …

It is.

… (and it seems like it works).

It usually does.

But isn't that the same as compromising?

No. A common preference is a new option everyone involved prefers to their respective original stance. A compromise is an option they do not prefer, but merely reluctantly agree to. And it’s usually not really new in content but resulted from mechanically mixing existing options. See the article linked in #5301.

  Dennis Hackethal criticized idea #5288.

It strikes me that I may have some confusion around compromise. There's an idea (from who/where? Gemini says Brett Hall...) that a compromise can actually be bad, because it is a new theory that no one was advocating for. So if it fails, it's harder to learn from and hold anyone accountable for. Yet, to resolve our procrastination and other hangups (and many problems in life), it seems like finding a common preference is the thing to do (and it seems like it works). But isn't that the same as compromising?

#5288​·​Tyler MillsOP, 5 days ago

… a compromise can actually be bad, because it is a new theory that no one was advocating for.

Compromise is always bad. It’s a form of irrationality.

  Dennis Hackethal criticized idea #5288.

It strikes me that I may have some confusion around compromise. There's an idea (from who/where? Gemini says Brett Hall...) that a compromise can actually be bad, because it is a new theory that no one was advocating for. So if it fails, it's harder to learn from and hold anyone accountable for. Yet, to resolve our procrastination and other hangups (and many problems in life), it seems like finding a common preference is the thing to do (and it seems like it works). But isn't that the same as compromising?

#5288​·​Tyler MillsOP, 5 days ago
  Dennis Hackethal revised idea #5204 and marked it as a criticism. The revision addresses idea #5232.

Time-release melatonin has solved the backfire problem for me. But I don't want to be dependent on it forever to get a good 8 hours.

Time-release melatonin has solved the backfire problem for me. But I don't want to be dependent on it forever to get a good 8 hours.

  Dennis Hackethal commented on criticism #5292.

Well the device may deal with some noisy neighbors, but sure, a criticism overall. Edited.

#5292​·​Tyler MillsOP, 5 days ago

Not to be nitpicky, especially since you ended up agreeing, but #5234 now has a pending criticism (yours), yet you acted on the idea. (Or rather, on the suggestion implied by it.) Acting on an idea with pending criticisms is technically the definition of irrationality on V.

I’m purposely not marking this a criticism so the flags don’t flip.

  Dennis Hackethal posted idea #5298.

Idea: rational discussion graph with recursive criticism evaluation, like Veritula does now. Except the ideas are programs, not natural-language text. And they execute when they have no pending criticisms.