“Can you live your life 100% guided by reason?”

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Knut Sondre Sæbø’s avatar
Knut Sondre Sæbø revised 3 days ago·#3626
3rd of 3 versions leading to #3684 (3 total)

Living according to reason and rationality alone is impossible, because propositional knowledge is only a subset of needed knowledge for an embodied agent (the others being procedural, participatory- and perspectival knowledge)

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Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

Calling people “embodied agent[s]” like they’re barely superior to video-game characters is dehumanizing and weird.

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Knut Sondre Sæbø’s avatar
Knut Sondre Sæbø revised 1 day ago·#3654
2nd of 2 versions leading to #3684 (3 total)

This is also borrowed from cognitive science. But what I meant was to point to the fact that there are “pre-conceptual” models, desires, attentional salience etc. that impinge on and filter input to conscious cognition. An example is how brain regions originally used for moving the body through 3D space are repurposed cognitively to “move around” in idea-space. Some anecdotal evidence for this: notice how many movement metaphors structure propositional thinking. We say we’re close to the truth, we understand, we grasp a concept, we arrive at a conclusion.

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Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

I don’t think any of this addresses my original criticism that calling people “embodied agent[s]” is dehumanizing. It sounds like we’re studying rats. So what if cog-sci is dehumanizing? That doesn’t make it better.

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Knut Sondre Sæbø’s avatar

Haven't thought about it like that. The purpose of speaking of an embodied agent is to generalize cognition. To understand what's relevant to an agent, you need to understand how that agent is embodied in the world.

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Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

The purpose of speaking of an embodied agent is to generalize cognition.

It’s possible that the actual purpose of such language is more sinister than that, having to do with static memes: to continue the age-old mystical tradition of portraying man as a pathetic, helpless being at the mercy of a universe he cannot understand or control.

But I’m purely speculating here and would have to think more about it. So I’m not marking this as a criticism (yet).

Knut Sondre Sæbø’s avatar
Knut Sondre Sæbø, revised by Dennis HackethalOP about 21 hours ago·#3686
2nd of 2 versions leading to #3684 (3 total)

I don’t think so, but I don’t know enough of the history. But the framework emerged out of biology trying to make a theory of organisms in general (innate theories like autopoiesis/self-preservation, for example). Then it’s been used specifically in cognitive science to try and integrate the general framework with human cognition. Even though it is dehumanizing, there is some value to viewing at least parts of human cognition in these terms. Whatever creativity is, most of human experience is already pre-given moment to moment, not willed by the person. I don’t think we as people derive our sense of autonomy from this world construction and pre-given coupling (we receive automatic responses/affordances). The only real change I seem to have is in every conscious moment.

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Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
Dennis HackethalOP, about 21 hours ago·#3684

The only real change I seem to have is in every conscious moment.

I don’t know what it means to ‘have change’, but note that even unconscious ideas evolve in our minds all the time. So those change as well, if that’s what you mean.

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