How Does Veritula Work?

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Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
22nd of 22 versions

How Does Veritula Work?

Veritula (Latin for ‘a bit of truth’) can help you live a life guided exclusively by reason.

To reason, within any well-defined epistemology, means to follow and apply that epistemology. Unreason, or whim, is an undue departure from it. Epistemology is the study of knowledge – basically, the study of what helps knowledge grow, what hinders its growth, and related questions.

Veritula follows, and helps you apply, Karl Popper’s epistemology, Critical Rationalism. It’s a continuation of the Athenian tradition of criticism and the only known epistemology without major flaws.1

Critical Rationalism says that ideas are assumed true until refuted. This approach leaves us free to make bold guesses and use the full arsenal at our disposal to criticize these guesses in order to solve problems, correct errors, and seek truth. It’s a creative and critical approach. Critical Rationalism is a fallibilist philosophy: there is no criterion of truth to determine with certainty whether some idea is true or false. We all make mistakes, and by an effort, we can correct them to get a little closer to the truth. Rejecting all forms of mysticism and the supernatural, Veritula recognizes that progress is both possible and desirable, and that rational means are the only way to make ongoing progress.

Veritula is a programmatic implementation of Popper’s epistemology.

Veritula provides an objective, partly automated way to tentatively determine whether a given idea is problematic. It does not tell you what to think – it teaches you how to think.

On Veritula, ideas are discrete and immutable. Consider an idea I:

plaintext
I

Since it has no criticisms, we tentatively consider I unproblematic. It is rational to adopt it and act in accordance with it. Conversely, it would be irrational to reject it, consider it problematic, or act counter to it. (See #2281 for more details on rational decision-making.)

Next, someone submits a criticism C1:

plaintext
I
|
C1

The idea I is now considered problematic so long as criticism C1 is not addressed. How do you address it? You can revise I so that C1 doesn’t apply anymore, which restores the previous state with just the standalone I (now called I2 to indicate the revision):

plaintext
Revise
I ------------> I2
|
C1

To track changes, Veritula offers beautiful diffing and version control for ideas.

If you cannot think of a way to revise I, you can counter-criticize C1, thereby neutralizing it with a new criticism, C2:

plaintext
I
|
C1
|
C2

Now, I is considered unproblematic again, since C1 is problematic and thus can’t be a decisive criticism anymore.

If you can think of neither a revision of I nor counter-criticism to C1, your only option is to accept that I has been (tentatively) defeated. You should therefore abandon it, which means: stop acting in accordance with it, considering it to be unproblematic, etc.

Since there can be many criticisms (which are also just ideas) and deeply nested counter-criticisms, the result is a tree structure. For example, as a discussion progresses, one of its trees might look like this:

plaintext
I
/ | \
C11 C12 C13
/ \ \
C21 C22 C23
/ \
C31 C32

In this tree, I is considered problematic. Although C11 has been neutralized by C21 and C22, C12 still needs to be addressed. In addition, C23 would have neutralized C13, but C31 and C32 make C23 problematic, so C13 makes I problematic as well.

You don’t need to keep track of these relationships manually. Veritula automatically marks ideas accordingly.

Since decision-making follows the same logic as truth-seeking, you can use these trees to make decisions, too. Veritula implements unanimous consent as defined by Taking Children Seriously, a parenting philosophy that builds on Popper’s epistemology. When you’re planning your next move but can’t decide on a city, say, Veritula helps you criticize your ideas and make a rational decision – meaning a decision you’ll be happy with. Again, it’s rational to act in accordance with ideas that have no pending criticisms.

All ideas, including criticisms, should be formulated as concisely as possible, and separate ideas should be submitted separately, even if they’re related. Otherwise, you run the risk of receiving ‘bulk’ criticisms, where a single criticism seems to apply to more content than it actually does.

Again, criticisms are also just ideas, so the same is true for criticisms. Submitting each criticism separately has the benefit of requiring the proponent of an idea to address each criticism individually, not in bulk. If he fails to address even a single criticism, the idea remains problematic and should be rejected.

The more you discuss a given topic, the deeper and wider the tree grows. Some criticisms can apply to multiple ideas in the tree, but that needs to be made explicit by submitting them repeatedly.

Comments that aren’t criticisms – eg follow-up questions or otherwise neutral comments – are considered ancillary ideas. Unlike criticisms, ancillary ideas do not invert their respective parents’ statuses. They are neutral.

One of the main benefits of Veritula is that the status of any idea in a discussion can be seen at a glance. If you are new to a much-discussed topic, adopt the displayed status of the ideas involved: if they are marked problematic, reject them; if they are not, adopt them.

Therefore, Veritula acts as a dictionary for ideas.

One of the problems of our age is that people have same discussions over and over again. Part of the reason is widespread irrationality, expressed in the unwillingness to change one’s mind; another is that it’s simply difficult to remember or know what’s true and what isn’t. Discussion trees can get complex, so people shouldn’t blindly trust their judgment of whether some idea is true or problematic, whether nested criticisms have been neutralized or not. Going off of memory is too error prone.

Veritula solves this problem: it makes discussion trees explicit so you don’t have to remember each idea and its relation to other ideas. Veritula therefore also enables you to hold irrational people accountable: if an idea has pending criticisms, the rational approach is to either abandon it or to save it by revising it or addressing all pending criticisms.

Many people don’t like to concede an argument. But with Veritula, no concessions are necessary. The site just shows you who’s right.

Using Veritula, we may discover a bit of truth.


  1. Popperian epistemology has some flaws, like verisimilitude, but Veritula doesn’t implement those.

Battle tested
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

[Veritula] does not tell you what to think – it teaches you how to think.

If Veritula shows me whether an idea is problematic or not, and then expects me to adopt or reject the idea accordingly, how is that not telling me what to think?

Criticism of #4471Criticized2
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

Who submitted those ideas? Not Veritula.

Criticism of #2114
Benjamin Davies’s avatar

Advocacy is not the same as telling people what to think.

Criticism of #2114
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

During a space, starting at around 15:00, @dirk-meulenbelt suggested that Veritula suffers from underspecification: it does not specify which kinds of criticisms users can submit. But there are lots, like Occam’s razor, hard to vary, lack of testability, etc.

Since I criticize Deutsch’s ‘hard to vary’ criterion for being underspecified, Veritula shouldn’t be underspecified either.

(Correct me if I misunderstood you here, @dirk-meulenbelt.)

Criticism of #4471Criticized2
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

Veritula and hard to vary are different in this regard. Deutsch claims that ‘hard to vary’ is epistemologically fundamental, that it’s at the core of rationality, and that all progress is made by choosing between explanations based on how hard to vary they are. In other words, he suggests (though only vaguely) a decision-making method.

Veritula has a different decision-making method: one of criticizing ideas and adopting only those with no pending criticisms. That decision-making method is fully specified, with zero vagueness or open questions (that I’m aware of).

Veritula does not pre-specify ahead of time what criticisms people can submit, this is true. But that’s not a problem. It’d be like asking Deutsch to specify ahead of time what explanations people can judge to be easy or hard to vary. That’s not the specification that’s lacking with hard to vary.

Criticism of #3795
Dirk Meulenbelt’s avatar

Huh, no. I said you found a level where the epistemology is unproblematic to specify and turned that into Veritula. I said the opposite. You misunderstood me.

Criticism of #3795
👍Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar
3rd of 3 versions

irrational

What's bad in being irrational? Ration overrated and has pretty indirect relation with the common sense. How rationality will help you to stand the right up, and do the thing? And what if you can't? In general: why not considering each judgement, as a true one? Let's talk about that: each person has it's own experience, which you will never live thru, and from their personal perception of this reality, their point absolutely have right to make sense. Not better, nor worse, then anyone's else. Could you prove that that person actually live in the same world you do? How you can be sure that everything you know make sense, and next moment you will not wake up, saying: what a weird dream I saw! How you would measure a truenesslessnessless, how can you expect that successful strategy will not fail next day? Let's touch the ground for a moment: what we ACTUALLY know about us, and the place where we are? If you like me, you know about this world only two things:
1. the World is such so it's existence, essence, the law, a form of being -- inevitable leads to appearing there of you;
2. and you, wonderfully, has an ability -- to perceive an experience, live thru time and flow of entropy, learn, learn something about your own existence, beingnesslessnessless, learn about limit of own ability to learn -- marvelously comprehend something despite all of that, something, or maybe, at least, one -- for sure -- the World is such the place you know about for sure exactly one thing -- whereinit thisnesslessnesslesssness of is allows to exist in it the you one, who able to perceive and comprehend it. And that's it. Everything behind that -- our imagination. But you are here, and I respect it, and welcoming you. So I'm totally open to trust any story of your own perspective on this journey, because: who I am to judge, what is true. And it's okay for me if you are not or notn't.
3. Because things here always falls into two items: the ones which lands in first or second.
4. And the rest ones.

Criticism of #4471Criticized5
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

What's bad in being irrational?

Irrationality leads to stasis, unhappiness, and ultimately death.

Criticism of #4549 Battle tested
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar

death

Everything leads there https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u3xIs0aajN4

Criticism of #4552Criticized2
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

Not necessarily, no. It’s a soluble problem.

Criticism of #4556
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar
2nd of 2 versions

Pretty confident takes as for a person who isn't going to sell you something useless :)
I would prefer to doubt a possibility to avoid death, there's 4B years of pretty reliable statistics. But I believe you.

On other hand, it's way more refreshing to accept a few years of existence as an unique gift and value the possibility to enjoy it.

Criticism of #4561Criticized1
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

[T]here's 4B years of pretty reliable statistics.

This is induction, see Popper.

Criticism of #4574
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar
2nd of 2 versions

There's a lot of meanings for this word: mathematical (structural), logical induction, epistemological one (anti-unification aka generalization, abduction). BTW it's interesting: how do you see the abduction: do you have a precise definition in mind?

Could you refer something specific for a brief introduction to the Popper's conclusions, which ones most interesting and important from your perspective?

Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

Even if that were true, that doesn’t mean we need to endure unhappiness or stasis until then.

Criticism of #4556
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar
4th of 4 versions

leads to stasis, unhappiness

And for that matter: excessive load of irrelevant cognitive work, like overcoming ambitious goal for the sake of rationalizations of rationalizations of rationalizations, paying time and sacrificing attention to the own emotions, e.g. very actual reality of being here and now on regular basis -- that's what actually could lead to unhappiness. There's nothing bad in death. But that's an existential disaster -- to not live.

Criticism of #4552Criticized1
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

There's nothing bad in death. But that's an existential disaster -- to not live.

Do you not see the blatant contradictions in your own writing?

Criticism of #4571
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar

I haven't advocating the consistency. But could you be more specific, which one?

Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

Not better, nor worse, then anyone's else.

This stance is known as relativism. It’s bad. Popper, Deutsch, and several others philosophers have already refuted it. You’re advocating an outdated idea.

There’s an objective way to form a rational preference for one idea over another. Veritula explains that in the idea you criticize.

Criticism of #4549
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar

It’s bad

Is prejudgment and conformism any good? Popper is famous for his theory of scientific revolutions, de-facto theory of accepting a fact that you have only merely a "current paradigm", that inevitable ignores observational facts in the name of infrastructural and logistical cost of maintenance more-or-less consistent consensus tradition. And readiness to throw it all away as soon as there will be just enough black swans around. Wouldn't it be more honest and humbly just to accept the inconsistency as a basis?

Criticism of #4553Criticized3
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

What you describe sounds more like Kuhn’s stance, not Popper’s.

Criticism of #4557
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar

Agree, you right, accepting the mistake.
Would you like to tell more what you found important from the Popper's work?

Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

Is prejudgment and conformism any good?

I’m not advocating conformism.

Criticism of #4557
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar

Okay, it looks like, counter-argumenting isn't enough to make a more interesting model by eliminating contradictions, let's try to find a common ground constructively, and use them as a fruitful source of improvement possibilities, I hope you do not perceive my, a bit informal way of express counter-arguments, personally, but as a valuable opportunity to test and improve worldview, as so do I, or just because of curiosity, anyway there's no reason to protect any fragile theory, except for a practice and for a cognitive workout purpose. So, back to the point: how your worldview model deals with Kuhn's stance of epistemic's non-monotonic nature? Do you have some formal semantic/logic in mind? Intuitionistic/nonmonotonic/relevance/modal, in particular epistemic/doxastic/temporal logics? There's pretty interesting matching and reachability logics: http://www.matching-logic.org . The https://cis.temple.edu/~pwang/NARS-Intro.html model looks promising. But there's a lot of opportunities to improve/overcome computation complexity issues (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combinatorial_explosion), and probably re-imagining, what computers are -- could be the key (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer). I agree with the take that only proofs counts which possible to run on the computer. But at the end, any computer or any person -- are just phenomenons at reality, not available for the direct observation and verification, so, after all, at the end -- it's all just vibes around the silent essence.

Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

prejudgment

Unclear what this means.

Criticism of #4557
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar

The certainty that one able to know something in advance.
The root of all kind of discriminations and profanity, for example.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prejudice

Yurii Pytomets’s avatar

objective

Oh well

Criticism of #4553Criticized1
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

This isn’t a criticism.

Criticism of #4558
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
2nd of 2 versions

“truenesslessnessless”, “beingnesslessnessless”, “thisnesslessnesslesssness”

What? You’re rambling.

Criticism of #4549
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar

Am I? That happens. Would you?

Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

No. You’re polluting Veritula with incoherent ramblings. Veritula is meant for serious philosophical work, not navel-gazing.

We have a rule (#4460) against behavior that sabotages debate and progress. Your ramblings are derailing debate. The amount of posts in such a short amount of time is also borderline spammy.

Take a break for a day or two. Be selective about what you respond to. Keep your posts short. And stop rambling.

Yurii Pytomets’s avatar
2nd of 2 versions

Enjoy your crystal clearness. Feel free to remove my account, please, since I see no such option. I see no perspective in communication with ones who found it discomfortable to retrospect frames of own perspective.

Criticism of #4586Criticized1
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

I see no perspective in communication with ones who found it discomfortable to retrospect frames of own perspective.

That isn’t what’s happening here. There are dozens of examples on V of me being self-critical.

You’re being passive aggressive, which further sabotages debate. You also ignored my request to take a break for a day or two, and to be less spammy (I just opened V to 16 new notifications from you after a short amount of time), contrary to your own statement that you see no point in discussing with me – which makes no sense.

I’m locking your account for a week. You may return in 7 days. If you then continue disregarding the forum rules, I will ban you permanently. Review them here: #4460

Criticism of #4592
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

How rationality will help you to stand the right up, and do the thing?

If you’re asking how rationality will help you figure out the right course of action: using the process outlined in #4471.

Criticism of #4549
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
2nd of 2 versions

Ration … has pretty indirect relation with the common sense.

That’s fine. Common sense is often found to be wrong upon closer inspection. It’s rationality that helps us seek truth. Common sense says the sun rotates around the earth; rationality helped us understand why that isn’t the case.

Criticism of #4549
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
3rd of 3 versions

Veritula implements unanimous consent …

This notion also maps onto Ayn Rand’s idea that “there are no conflicts of interests among rational men.” (From The Virtue of Selfishness.)

There’s a reason rationality means lack of conflict.

Yurii Pytomets’s avatar

In an "ideal" world with unlimited sources and time.
Real-world cognition model must handle resource (time, computation, available energy, logistic, complexity, influence) bounds as an explicit manageable constraints, presented for the conscious.

Criticism of #3922Criticized1
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

If rationality and peace required unlimited resources and time, you’d be at war all the time, because resources and time are always limited. But you’re not at war all the time. So rationality and peace can’t require unlimited resources and time.

They require things like openness to debate, creativity, freedom of association, etc.

Criticism of #4581 Battle tested
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar
9th of 9 versions

But you’re not at war all the time.

It depend on the perspective and viewpoint. We are at war, literally, and pretty often -- figuratively, each of us. So the constrains are real and the space for creativity and "freedom" rely on available resources, that would be naïve to ignore them in your theory. But there's, definitely, a threshold, above which cooperation and synergy -- brings more on the long-term perspective, than costs. But constrains are still here locally (e.g. limited time and cognitive/computational complexity/energy). Also, each consensus have a price to be established, and an infrastructural tax to work.

Criticism of #4588Criticized1
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar

pretty often

So not all the time.

Criticism of #4609
Yurii Pytomets’s avatar
2nd of 2 versions

freedom of association

It doesn't appears out of nowhere. Freedom is the consequence of an ability to withstand, the power, resources to elaborate and protect such consensus, and maintain it. If you are ready to pay the price, and have the resources.

Yurii Pytomets’s avatar

And so for real-world rational subject there inevitable appears necessity of competition, ability to lie, on addition to the cooperation.