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This is a comment on version 4, but it applies to version 5 as well.

#68​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago

This is an example of version control for ideas. As I revise this idea, new versions are created and automatically diffed. Click the arrows below to cycle through the version history.

#67​·​Dennis HackethalOP revised almost 2 years ago​·​Original #64

This is a comment on version 2.

#66​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago

This is an example of version control for ideas. As I revise this idea, new versions are created and automatically diffed.

#65​·​Dennis HackethalOP revised almost 2 years ago​·​Original #64

This is an example of version control for ideas.

#64​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago

Children are constantly being bossed around at school. So they can't become independent at school.

It's one thing if you don't share my idea of freedom. But the contradiction above should be enough to dissuade you from your original position: if your goal is for the child to think independently, but it chronically fails to do so at school, then school is no good even by your own logic.

#61​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

That's right, which is why the teacher's freedom ends where the child's freedom begins.

#60​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

Speaking of 'enabling' here makes no sense when young people are actually forced to do what you describe.

Maybe a given young person has no interest in the digital age. Maybe he is more interested in castles and outer space. But teachers prevent him from learning more about those by forcing him to learn "programming, mathematics, philosophy and biology" or whatever else instead.

And the fact remains that it's impossible to teach independent or critical thinking by paternalizing someone for years and telling them what they can do and think, when they may use the bathroom, when they may eat, etc. How could this possibly "emancipate children in the enlightenment sense"? How absurd!

#58​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

You are a chemist. Doesn't the same criticism apply to you?

#54​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

We should judge ideas by their content, not by their source.

#53​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

Here you are suddenly using a different criterion for coercion.

Compulsion could lie either in the raising a child to become a consumer or in the lack of intellectual maturity, but presumably not in both. (It actually lies in forcing anything onto the child, be that becoming a consumer or something else.)

#50​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

School violates several enlightenment values, including freedom of association and the right to bodily autonomy.

Advocating compulsory schooling for the sake of enlightenment makes no sense.

#49​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

Whether school is compulsory does not depend on whether you as a teacher dislike the curriculum, but on whether the student is forced to go to school.

#48​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

Exams are not an example of freedom of choice. On the contrary: they are an instrument of oppression.

#46​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

That's not a real choice. For example, I had to choose between French and Latin, but I didn't have the choice to do neither and create a new alternative.

Compulsory schooling itself violates freedom of choice, as the student does not have the choice to stay at home and do something else with his time instead.

#45​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

Although you can't force someone to think, you can create the conditions for them to force themselves to think.

That's exactly what school does.

#43​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

So children already have freedom of thought? You originally said (#34) that children only have freedom of thought when their minds have reached a certain level of maturity; that this was the purpose of school in the first place. That doesn't fit together.

#41​·​Dennis HackethalOP revised almost 2 years ago​·​Original #39​·​Criticism

Expecting a child to keep his freedom of thought in the face of all that pressure is not realistic.

#40​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

If freedom of choice is sufficiently restricted, freedom of thought is also restricted.

Anyone who is forced to spend hours every day dealing with topics they would otherwise not deal with has neither freedom of choice nor freedom of thought.

#37​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

CrowBot99 writes:

In order for a military and police to be valid, it would need the consent of the governed […], but a hidden qualification is MOST of the governed, which is an exception to individual right of association.

And:

[Rand’s] conclusion, in essence, is that an individuals [sic] right to choose who defends them should be ignored for the sake of a collective good, which seems to me an exception to one of our shared principles.

#26​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

It doesn’t. Not any more than it creates man’s rights. Whether an interaction is consensual is derived from the nature of the interaction itself.

#24​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

Taken to its logical conclusion, Rand’s argument necessitates a single world government, which doesn’t fit with the objectivist notion that government should be limited.

#22​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

In anticipation of this problem, different protection agencies would develop such rules and procedures, which could be publicly accessible for their customers to peruse.

Solving this problem is one of the main value propositions these agencies have to offer. Without a solution, people won’t give them money. So these agencies have an incentive to put their heads together and come up with common standards.

For novel situations where they don’t have an applicable standard yet, see the myth of the framework (#16).

#21​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

Governments do wage wars against each other, but private arbitration services would be less inclined to do so because, unlike governments, they do not have an effectively infinite amount of extorted money (taxes), fiat money, and human lives to draw from.

#19​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism

A common libertarian argument is that governments already compete. They are already in a state of anarchy with each other, yet the world still works somehow, and states can and do have agreements and common standards (eg extradition rules).

#17​·​Dennis HackethalOP, almost 2 years ago​·​Criticism