Sleep
Sleep is a challenge for many, including me. Let's see what we know.
No medical advice, follow at your own risk.
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Falling asleep has been a lifelong challenge for me. I suspect there is a "preference fight" going on, among other things, keeping my thoughts highly active.
I am sometimes physically tired by hour 16 of the day, but I can easily stay up and continue working to hour 18 or 20. I have no caffeine or nighttime sugar.
I do fall asleep more quickly the longer I've been awake, but not by as much as one would hope. After being up 18 hours, it still may take an hour or more for me to fall asleep.
So just stay up 18 hours every day, and sleep in the next day by the extra two hours (assuming 8, which seems optimal for me).
This perpetual 2-hour creep is not compatible with the obligations of life, such as getting to work by 9am every weekday.
But you don’t have that obligation right now, right?
I do not have a consistent 9am obligation now, no. But my implicit hope here is to find lasting solutions. I expect to have morning obligations again one day, maybe very soon.
Daytime noise in any kind of city is hard to avoid. One can try to optimize their living situation to avoid, but that's not always doable. Earplugs and noise-machines can help, but have never been totally foolproof for me.
You may be overstating the difficulty. IIRC you like rural America. Finding a quiet place to live should be doable, even in cities but especially in rural places. (Believe it or not I once stayed at an Airbnb in Tahoe that was TOO quiet to sleep. It was so quiet it kinda freaked me out. And that’s saying something because I love quiet.)
I would not say I care for rural America. It sounds nice on the one hand, but conflicts with my anti-hermit hangup (I don't want to be isolated from society, at least not too much...). My vague ideal has always been: "big city in the near distance." Agreed that too quiet is a problem but that's trivial to solve compared to too loud.
Finding quiet places in a city is indeed doable, but it's hard to even come close to guaranteeing success. There's no way to sample an apartment for 24 hours before moving in. It comes down to scoping it out, reading reviews, interviewing other residents if you can, then signing the lease and hoping for the best. If it's a bad fit, moving again is a huge, costly hassle.
Increase reliability of the quiet apartment search by thoroughly interviewing several neighboring residents.
This depends on neighboring residents being home during your apartment tour, and being honest (or correct) about noise pollution (maybe they're causing it and don't know). The search remains an uncertain one, even with great interview participation.
This perpetual creep of waking time will mean one's circadian rhythm is messed up, inverting every several days. (Being out of sync with sunlight is a health concern.)
Not sleeping at all certainly damages the rhythm. But for me the current choice is between a chemically-mediated 8-9 hours from, say, 12am to 8am, or a natural 5-6 hours, from 2 or 3am to 8am. Both are similar in terms of the day night cycle, and not close to as bad as sleeping in to noon (and later and later) would be, I think.
I tried this for a few days recently. By day three or four I went to bed at around 6am and woke up at 2pm. Didn’t feel great the rest of the day. Went back to a more regular sleep schedule after that and feeling better now.
I notice a tendency to find more things to do (such as research questions) leading up to bedtime, similar to how I miraculously find more tasks to do (such as taking out the trash) when trying to leave the house for an appointment (I have a lifelong habit of running late as well; I suspect a relation between these two).
I also clearly procrastinate preparing food and eating, almost every day, conflicting with caloric intake goals. For a few years in childhood I had an anxiety disorder around eating. I suspect some residual hangup from that, but hard to say. Relates to the sleep trouble..?
Could you do meal prep for the week? Have meals ready in the freezer so you don’t need to cook every day.
Something I made the other day, recipe in the caption :) https://www.instagram.com/p/Db2DzFplBXq/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
Looks awesome! Didn't realize you have a bodybuilding channel, will check it out.
The cause of procrastination is a conflict between preferences. Part of you wants to take out the trash, another doesn’t. The solution is a common preference: a new option both parts of you prefer to their respective initial position.
Can you identify those parts within you?
Try brainstorming many new options on V. With any luck, you’ll find a new option both parts of you want without delay.
It strikes me that I may have some confusion around compromise. There's an idea (from who/where? Gemini says Brett Hall...) that a compromise can actually be bad, because it is a new theory that no one was advocating for. So if it fails, it's harder to learn from and hold anyone accountable for. Yet, to resolve our procrastination and other hangups (and many problems in life), it seems like finding a common preference is the thing to do (and it seems like it works). But isn't that the same as compromising?
Gemini says Brett Hall...
No it’s TCS: https://takingchildrenseriously.com/how-is-a-compromise-not-a-real-solution/
… a compromise can actually be bad, because it is a new theory that no one was advocating for.
Compromise is always bad. It’s a form of irrationality.
… it seems like finding a common preference is the thing to do …
It is.
… (and it seems like it works).
It usually does.
But isn't that the same as compromising?
No. A common preference is a new option everyone involved prefers to their respective original stance. A compromise is an option they do not prefer, but merely reluctantly agree to. And it’s usually not really new in content but resulted from mechanically mixing existing options. See the article linked in #5301.
Standard melatonin backfires, causing me (and at least one other person I know) to wake up at around hour 5 after falling asleep (maybe when it has finished metabolizing). This is bad, especially if it means you cannot fall back asleep (as in my case, more than half the time).
Time-release melatonin has solved the backfire problem for me. But I don't want to be dependent on it forever to get a good 8 hours.
AFAIK it creates no physical dependence and you don’t build a tolerance.
A cursory search suggests I was mistaken. It may be "mentally" habit forming (one becomes anxious if it's unavailable). But that's no big deal. So it could be a fine long-term solution to the staying asleep problem. What's not to love: #5205.
Time-release melatonin also does not noticeably affect the larger issue for me of falling asleep.
I've wondered about taking some regular to fall asleep, and the time-released to stay asleep. But in any case testing so far has shown melatonin (of either kind) on its own does not significantly help the falling asleep issue (the greater of the two, falling asleep and staying).
Adhere to standard sleep hygiene. That will help you fall asleep in a reasonable time (<30mins?) and get a healthy 7-8 hours.
On days when I have extensively exercised, worked, socialized or all of the above, my trouble falling asleep seems largely unchanged. (It still often takes ~2 hours, without chemical intervention.)
If I had a large dinner only two hours before attempting sleep, the trouble to fall asleep seems about the same as if I have an empty stomach, or any other degree of fullness on that continuum.
Diet isn't ruled out just by comparing a large dinner with an empty stomach before bed.
You've said that you often put off eating and struggle to eat as much as you intend to. If you're regularly under-eating or going long stretches without food, that may be keeping adrenaline and cortisol elevated into the evening, making it harder to wind down, fall asleep and stay asleep.
That could also explain why you're physically tired but still mentally alert and able to keep working at night.
Good reasoning. But I don't go long stretches without eating (no more than 4 or 5 hours), and my weight is stable (or growing, depending on goals), so I can't be undereating in general.
From 10:27 onwards, this video goes over a variety of diet related elements that affect sleep. Might be useful.
On days where I have not looked at a screen at all, my trouble falling asleep is the same.
This doesn't rule out blue light from other sources disturbing your ability to wind down and fall asleep.
True, I have a lamp that is warm in color, but probably still has some blue in it. I'll consider looking into redder lamps. I still suspect mental stuff is the main issue.
I suspect the issue is mental, because I sometimes feel tired getting into bed, then immediately feel progressively less tired, the longer I am in bed. The tiredness sometimes comes and goes, over the course of maybe one or two hours, before sleep comes. This suggests to me that my thinking is causing my wakefulness. I have observed this effect for as long as I can remember.
Becoming progressively less tired is compatible with physiological causes, such as those I mention in #5241.
When this happens, the advice is to get out of bed and do something else (without bright or blue light) for a while.
Have done. Does not seem to have a strong effect on the "timer." Still may take an hour to fall sleep after getting back into bed. As if a certain amount of time in bed (certain amount of suffering, or punishment?) needs to pass before sleep will come.
Just stumbled upon this tip in my Insta feed to deal with noisy neighbors: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Db4gheyx9WP/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
Apparently you can buy a device that cancels out vibrations in your walls. Not sure I’m understanding exactly how it works.
Interesting. But I would guess it only works well for constant sounds. The sensor has to read the waveform to create one that cancels it. Will not do much for short impulses of sound, which are the main offender (my current neighbors are okay, for the record).
There’s a company that makes a cube that you put in your bedroom and it creates a sound barrier. Like a noise canceling perimeter. It’s like noise canceling headphones except you don’t have to wear anything. I forget the name of the company but worth searching for it online. I remember being excited about it because I had the exact same idea and was stoked to see somebody actually doing it.
Hmm, I'm skeptical of the physics, and a cursory search supports. Not feasible for the same reason that holograms aren't (as depicted in movies): waves won't stop midair, unless they're "standing waves," which you can't do much with. Comment #5225 may also apply.
Have you traveled internationally? I’m thinking specifically of flying west for a large distance.
For example, if I fly to the West coast from central Europe and I land at 12pm say. That’s 9 hours behind Europe. And then I try to stay up until 10pm or so. That’s nearly impossible. I’ve fallen asleep with the lights on.
Would be interesting if you still lay awake for an hour or so even when severely jet lagged.
I have traveled internationally, and I think jetlag is the same as just staying up very late. Both allow for fast time-to-sleep (<30min). I can fall asleep quickly if I've been awake for 19 hours, say. The issue is trying to achieve that time-to-sleep for ~16 hours of awake time.
Found this article illuminating (emphasis mine):
The gradual loss of energy during the day produces a drive to sleep in order to restore that energy. This is known as the homeostatic sleep drive. If the homeostatic process were the only one involved, a person would wake up fully energized and then gradually wind down over the course of the day, like a battery losing power. This would mean an uneven level of alertness during the day, with dangerously low alertness in the afternoon and evening. To counterbalance this, the SCN also regulates alertness by what is known as the circadian process. As the day goes on, and energy winds down, the SCN compensates for this by sending a stronger alertness signal to the brain and body. This alertness signal reaches a peak in the two hours just before bedtime. This zone of maximum alertness is known as the “forbidden zone for sleep” since the alertness signal makes sleep nearly impossible during that zone. When the usual bedtime is reached, the SCN begins to turn down its alertness signal to allow the body to sleep.
The article is on “Non-24-Hour Sleep-Wake Disorder”. I’m obviously no doctor so don’t take anything I say as advice or diagnosis. But from what you’ve said, I wonder if you have that. I think I have the same issue.
The article goes into several causes you could look into. For example, it says exposure to blue light in the morning can help reset one’s internal clock. But that requires a special type of cell on the retina. If those cells don’t work properly, then as far as your internal clock is concerned, you’re effectively blind.
Interesting and disturbing. I still think psychology is the prime suspect for me, though. Runaway thinking. I'll pay more attention going forward, and see if I observe this "alertness signal."
Something simple you could try is heavily dimming your computer and other devices and using strong red filters for the last few hours before bed.
Not just the standard night shift features, which are often far too weak. I mean making the screen properly red so that almost all of the blue and green light is removed.
You might be surprised by how dim you can make your devices while still being able to use them fine. You just need to give your eyes a minute to adjust. I routinely have my iPhone and MacBook on their dimmest settings.
Dimming or reddening the room lighting could help too. (Following up on #5243.)
I do use 0% brightness on my monitor and Windows' red night filter at 90% about 90 minutes before getting ready for bed, and I use only a warm-colored lamp. But could do more. Have not messed with the actual monitor color presets (turning off the blue and green channels; not the same thing as the night filter?). No screens at all seems like a smarter habit, which I'll work toward.
Per #5229, here is a debate to find a common preference for the two interests in me.
Interest 1: Stay up past 16 hours and do more things! Accomplish more, have more fun today and feel like the day was more productive. Some loss of sleep is okay for the sake of accomplishing more, earlier in life.
Interest 2: This measure of productivity is suspect. By whose yardstick is a day not productive enough? This is itself the source of the anxiety. Just work as much as we can each day without coercion. Asking for any more is foolish.
Interest 1: It's my yardstick. I want to accomplish more, and I know I can (and we do, often, by staying up "too" late). And staying up is working as much as we can each day without coercion. It's stopping and getting ready for bed that requires coercion!
Interest 2: Go to bed around hour 16, to get the full 8 ours we require for good health and functioning! We regret when we sleep too much less than 8 hours, and the cumulative health impact causes us some background anxiety (which is itself unhealthy).
I purposely avoid drinking any water past 8pm so I don’t wake up in the middle of the night having to answer nature’s call. But sometimes that still happens. How can that be?
According to this article, elevating your legs helps with fluid distribution. My understanding is that, as you get older, your body gets worse at fluid distribution. If you’re never horizontal during the day, fluid gathers in your legs. And if bedtime is the first time you’re horizontal, the fluid redistributes as you sleep, some of it gathers in your bladder, and you need to pee.
That explains why I had to use the bathroom in the middle of the night even though I don’t drink anything past 8pm. So I tried elevating my legs the next day, working from the couch for a bit in the evening. It worked! I didn’t wake up having to use the bathroom that night. (I still woke up for some other unidentified reason, but at least I can now rule out this cause.)