Criticisms of Zcash

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Erik Orrje’s avatar
Erik OrrjeOP, 28 days ago·#2362

Zcash will become the next money. That's because it contains bitcoin's solutions to fiat, and also solves bitcoin's lack of privacy.

Criticized1
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies revised 27 days ago·#2369
2nd of 2 versions

Bitcoin (and by extension Zcash) does not solve fiat. A key problem of fiat is that it isn’t backed by anything. Bitcoin isn’t backed my anything, and as far as I know, neither is Zcash.

Criticism of #2362
Zelalem Mekonnen’s avatar
Zelalem Mekonnen revised 27 days ago·#2373
2nd of 2 versions

Bitcoin is backed by POW or computational work or encryption.

Criticism of #2369Criticized1
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies revised 26 days ago·#2378
2nd of 2 versions

“Bitcoin is not backed by anything” can also be stated as “Bitcoin is not redeemable in anything”.

“POW” or “computational work” or “encryption” are not things you can redeem if you own bitcoin.

This is in contrast to gold-backed currencies, for example, which are currencies which can be redeemed in gold. The United States Federal Reserve Note only became fiat when it was no longer redeemable in gold.

Criticism of #2373
Erik Orrje’s avatar
Erik OrrjeOP revised 26 days ago·#2414
2nd of 2 versions

In a gold standard society, gold doesn't need to be backed by anything. The same would be true for Bitcoin and Zcash. The US Federal Reserve Notes used to be backed by gold to prevent excessive money creation, gold itself, Bitcoin and ZCash won't need to be backed by anything due to their inherent scarcity.

Criticism of #2378Criticized1
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies, 26 days ago·#2411

The reason to back a currency with gold or some other commodity is that the commodity has other utility aside from being used as money. This sets a floor on the price, making it a store of value.

Bitcoin and Zcash have no utility beyond their transferability. The only way either would ever be money is if a government made it their legal tender, forcing transactions to be done with it exclusively.

To use US Dollar as an example again, the only reason it is money is that it has the alternative utility function of being the only thing the government will accept for tax payments. In that sense it is the only currency that keeps you out jail if you use it in its designated geographical area (!). If that weren’t the case then people would quickly swap to using something else—something that isn’t being manipulated by the government.

(To prevent any confusion, please understand that I believe governments should be completely agnostic to how people carry out their transactions, including allowing them to use any currency and even old-school barter if they wish.)

TL;DR The only way for the US Dollar, or Bitcoin, or Zcash (or any other unbacked currencies) to be useful as money is if a government makes them legal tender, and prohibits anything else being used in transactions.

Criticism of #2414
Erik Orrje’s avatar
Erik OrrjeOP revised 26 days ago·#2418
2nd of 2 versions

The reason to back a currency with gold or some other commodity is that the commodity has other utility aside from being used as money. This sets a floor on the price, making it a store of value.

Utility is not a necessary aspect of money. Only 5-10% of gold's value is tied to its industrial use (https://www.statista.com/statistics/299609/gold-demand-by-industry-sectorshare/#:~:text=The%20jewelry%20industry%20accounted%20for,China%2C%20Russia%2C%20and%20Australia). Another 40% is used for jewellery.

This floor is not so reassuring if the asset were to plummet 50%. Other commodities, such as silver, have a greater industrial utility. That makes it less suitable as money since its value becomes tied to commodity cycles.

The reason to back a currency with gold or some other commodity is mainly due to its scarcity, which puts a limit on money creation (done through fractional reserve banking).

Criticism of #2411Criticized3
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies, 26 days ago·#2423

By the standard you have set here, you have implicitly disqualified Bitcoin and Zcash. If gold is not good enough because it could fall to its price floor (your claim being 50%), then Bitcoin and Zcash are even worse because they have no floor at all. It might be more precise to say the floor is zero.

Criticism of #2418
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies, 26 days ago·#2424

The price of a commodity and the quantity of it in use don’t strictly correlate in the way you suggest here. 50% of gold being tied up in industry, jewellery, etc. does not mean the price floor is at 50% of the current price.

Criticism of #2418
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies, 26 days ago·#2425

Utility is not a necessary aspect of money.

Money without other use cases only holds value to the degree it can continuously win a Keynesian Beauty Contest in the market.

In other words, it has no underlying value.

Criticism of #2418
Erik Orrje’s avatar
Erik OrrjeOP, 24 days ago·#2494

Thanks for the criticism. New argument: Utility (besides usefulness as money) is not strictly necessary, although it may be nice to have. The value of a currency is set by supply and demand.

Supply: A limited supply (scarcity) may increase the value.

Demand: Demand is set determined by how well people percieve the currency's features as a store of value, medium of exchange and unit of account. Important factors include: Durability, Portability, Divisibility, Fungibility, and Stability. Gold has had most of these features (importantly scarcity, only 2% inflation from mining). However, it severely lacks in portability due to being a metal, compared to hard digital assets.

So the value of a currency is mostly determined by its perceived usefulness as money, not its utility for other things.

Criticism of #2425Criticized1
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies, 24 days ago·#2497

Durability, Portability, Divisibility, Fungibility, and Stability

These are all secondary values.
The durability of something is irrelevant if the thing itself is useless.
The portability of something is irrelevant if the thing itself is useless.
The divisibility of something is irrelevant if the thing itself is useless.
Etcetera, etcetera.

The only demand for something like this comes from either a mistaken understanding of what ‘value’ is/means (e.g. believing that the ‘durability’ of something otherwise useless makes it valuable), or from the Keynesian Beauty Contest linked above.

This dynamic makes cryptos wonderful as instruments of speculation, but they will never be money unless they are backed by some independently useful commodity (which IIRC some actually are), or are made legal tender by some government (which defeats the point).

Criticism of #2494Criticized1
Erik Orrje’s avatar
Erik OrrjeOP, 20 days ago·#2566

Value comes from solving a problem.

Money solves (among other things) the problem of barter by being a medium of exchange. Different media solve this problem better than others. That determines its value.

I still don't see why there has to be a price floor set by the commodity's utility (for other things than being money)? Also, the value could still go to zero if that utility was no longer needed: Gold isn't guaranteed to be valued in industry or jewellry in the future.

Criticism of #2497
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies, 20 days ago·#2574

Money needs to be a medium of exchange, a unit of account, and a store of value.

Features that support a price floor create the conditions where one can expect that their wealth won’t completely evaporate for one reason or another. Something that has no features supporting a price floor is not good money.

If gold no longer has features supporting a price floor at some point in the future (as you claim might happen), then gold would also not be good money in that future.

Zcash has nothing going for it that makes it a store of value. To the degree that it is ‘worth’ anything in the future, it is because of the dynamics I refer to in #2497.

Criticism of #2566Criticized1
Erik Orrje’s avatar
Erik OrrjeOP, 19 days ago·#2581

I agree that it would be optimal if Zcash and Bitcoin had such price floors. But couldn't it still be the best alternative in certain jurisdictions, e.g. where it's impossible/impractical to own gold, and the local currency gets inflated away?

Criticism of #2574
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies, 24 days ago·#2498

Supply: A limited supply (scarcity) may increase the value.

The scarcity of a useless thing doesn’t make it less useless.

Criticism of #2494
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
Dennis Hackethal, 24 days ago·#2509

New arguments may not belong at the bottom of the criticism chain. Depending on context, it may need to be either a new sibling at the top of the chain or a completely new standalone idea.

I didn’t check this exchange in detail to say for sure. But I recommend checking, so I’m marking this as a criticism. If you think the new argument can remain as is, leave a counter-criticism to neutralize my criticism.

Criticism of #2494Criticized1
Erik Orrje’s avatar
Erik OrrjeOP, 20 days ago·#2565

Yes #2494 may have been slightly better as a criticism of #2411, though this still works IMO. But good to know for next time :)

Criticism of #2509
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies revised 26 days ago·#2427
2nd of 2 versions

Why not some other cryptocurrency that also has those features?
For example, why not an existing or future fork of Zcash?

“[Insert favoured cryptocurrency] will become the next money” is an extremely easy to vary statement.

Criticism of #2362Criticized1
Erik Orrje’s avatar
Erik OrrjeOP, 24 days ago·#2495

Is "it contains bitcoin's solutions to fiat, and also solves bitcoin's lack of privacy" easy to vary? Could be made harder to vary by explaining the technicals of zero-knowledge proofs as well (though I'm not konwledgeable enough to do that here).

Criticism of #2427
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies, 24 days ago·#2496

The part that is easy to vary is that an arbitrary amount of different cryptos can be made with the same features.

The features themselves can be as specific as you like but the overall argument is still extremely easy to vary, because it is an argument for a specific cryptocurrency.

It is the same as arguing for a specific god because the god you like has specific features. The god itself is still easy to vary.

Criticism of #2495Criticized1
Erik Orrje’s avatar
Erik OrrjeOP, 20 days ago·#2567

The part that is easy to vary is that an arbitrary amount of different cryptos can be made with the same features.

There's never an arbitrary amount of solutions to a specific problem. In this case, the problems are the centralisation and the lack of privacy of our current money. They may not be problems for you specifically (e.g. if you live in a high-trust jurisdiction), but I'd like to hear arguments as to why nobody in the world would consider them problems.

Criticism of #2496Criticized1
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies, 20 days ago·#2575

I don’t deny that Zcash might be decentralised and private.

For Zcash to become the next money, it is not sufficient for it to just be durable, fungible, private, decentralised, etc.

As long as it doesn’t have any underlying value, it will not be suitable as money.

You are using secondary attributes of good money as positive justifications for Zcash as good money, but you are failing to answer the criticism that Zcash has no underlying value.

Criticism of #2567
Erik Orrje’s avatar
Erik OrrjeOP, 20 days ago·#2568

It is the same as arguing for a specific god because the god you like has specific features. The god itself is still easy to vary.

I could still see someone with knowledge of psychology and theology provide a good explanation as to why certain gods and religions have spread in favour of others. All ideas are solutions to some problem.

Criticism of #2496 Battle tested
Benjamin Davies’s avatar
Benjamin Davies revised 20 days ago·#2579
3rd of 3 versions

It is one thing to explain why a particular god spread more than others in the past, but it is another thing to claim that your specific god of choice will spread more than others in the future.

Your claim is that Zcash is the next money, which is analogous to claiming your niche god of choice is under-appreciated and will be the next big one.

Criticism of #2568Criticized1
Erik Orrje’s avatar
Erik OrrjeOP, 19 days ago·#2582

Yes. But again, because it solves certain problems with existing money. There could similarly be good and bad explanations why certain religions would spread in the future.

Criticism of #2579