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Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
Dennis HackethalOP·​#4385·​·​Criticism

The article says:

[Justificationism] is the idea that beliefs can be fully justified, proven true by some final authority beyond question.

This definition breaks with BoI. The glossary from ch. 1 says:

[Justificationism is t]he misconception that knowledge can be genuine or reliable only if it is justified by some source or criterion.

Note that this second quote says nothing about finality “beyond question”.

Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
Dennis HackethalOP·​#4386·​·​Criticism

Just because Dirk’s notion of justificationism breaks with BoI’s doesn’t mean Dirk is wrong. BoI could be wrong.

Criticized1*
Dirk Meulenbelt’s avatar
Dirk Meulenbelt·​#4391·​

Indeed. Justification without finality is fake.

"X is true because of Y, but we can discuss Y"

Is functionally the same as

"X is true and we can discuss why"

Criticized1*Linked to by #4400
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
Dennis HackethalOP·​#4393·​·​Criticism

But this sounds like you’re saying justificationism is necessarily the same as foundationalism. Whereas in #4392 you agreed it’s only a kind of justifiationism.

Dirk Meulenbelt’s avatar
Dirk Meulenbelt·​#4394·​

Why does this sound like I am equating them?

Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
Dennis HackethalOP·​#4400·​

“Justification without finality is fake.” (#4391) In other words, if it doesn’t claim to be final, it’s not justification.

Dirk Meulenbelt’s avatar
Dirk Meulenbelt·​#4403·​·​Criticism
Only version leading to #4407 (2 total)·​revised by Dennis HackethalOP

So? How is that foundationalism?

Criticized1*
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
Dennis HackethalOP·​#4405·​·​Criticism

In that model, the final justification ends up serving as foundation.

Dirk Meulenbelt’s avatar
Dirk Meulenbelt·​#4406·​

If finality = foundationalism, then yeah they're the same and I was right all along. Justificationism and foundationalism are the same thing.

Criticized1*
Dennis Hackethal’s avatar
Dennis HackethalOP·​#4407·​·​Criticism

No, I’m saying the model you’re using claims they’re the same thing, contrary to your prior agreement in #4392. They’re still not actually the same thing, see #4387.

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