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I think it does imply a conflict. I think every emotional sensation — including urges — arises from problems in the Popperian sense: two or more incompatible theories in conflict.

For example, consider hunger. One theory (Drive A) is that we don’t want to be hungry, while another signals that we are hungry (from ephemeral sense data (which could itself be viewed as a Drive, though that’s not important here)). The conflict between these theories produces the urge — in this case, the sensation of hunger.

I explain these conflicts in more detail, with further examples of Drives, Intuitions, and Statements, in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uEcR_0GbzRE

#1712 · Edwin de WitOP, 14 days ago · CriticismCriticized1 criticim(s)

Done

#1711 · Edwin de WitOP, 15 days ago

Superseded by #1709. This comment was generated automatically.

#1710 · Edwin de WitOP, 15 days ago · Criticism

It's a fair point. I agree it's not a perfect word. I tried many labels and variations, but I ended up with Drives because in my view it contrasted well with Intuition:

Unlike Intuitions, Drives carry the sense of a deep urge whose underlying theory is largely unconscious. You’re aware of the feelings they produce as you say, but not of the reasoning behind them. For example, you might know you’re sexually attracted to someone or suddenly feel sad, yet have no idea why — then that’s a Drive.

If you do have some sense of why you’re feeling a certain way and can roughly express it in words, it’s an Intuition. If you can fully articulate it in words, it’s a Statement. Statements can also produce feelings. For example, if your core value is that non‑coercion, you might feel angry when someone disciplines their child in an immoral way — here, the Statement (often paired with Intuitions or Drives) is producing the feeling of anger.

I agree the main shortcoming of Drive is that it’s often taken to mean innate or hardwired knowledge. I haven’t found a better alternative, so I make it clear when explaining the concept that Drives can also arise from habitualized knowledge. Deutch (in this podcast: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5e2LWxaqQUQ) seems to also support this way of defining new terminology

If you want to say something new the terminology you use is going to be unsuited for it because the terminology is going to be adapted to previous ways of thinking um what you can do is just invent your own terminology that's a terrible idea because no one will understand what you're saying and secondly it is subject to the same problem that it will only represent accurately fairly accurately your thoughts at a particular time when you're addressing a new criticism it will no longer be suitable so I think what people usually do and what is done in physics and what's done in philosophy what Popper did is to use the nearest existing term and be very careful to explain that one means something new by it.

If you have alternate suggestions, I'm of course eager to hear them!

#1709 · Edwin de WitOP, 15 days ago · revision of #1679 · CriticismCriticized7 criticim(s)

A typo, I think. Fixed now!

#1708 · Edwin de WitOP, 15 days ago

Superseded by #1706. This comment was generated automatically.

#1707 · Edwin de WitOP, 15 days ago · Criticism

If I were having a technical discussion with DD, Lulie, or you, I’d stick with those terms, since they’re the most technically accurate and you already understand them. However, when explaining the different types of knowledge to people who don’t quite grasp it yet or struggle to picture what it is, I’ve found that these labels help. These labels already have a meaning that is more commonly associated to sensations in the mind.

#1706 · Edwin de WitOP, 15 days ago · revision of #1692 · CriticismCriticized3 criticim(s)

Well, if you have empirically found that your new labels have helped you explain these concepts, then I’d normally be inclined to agree with you. But then I saw this part:

These labels already have a meaning that is more commonly associated to sensations in the mind.

But you use your labels with new meanings they aren’t commonly associated with. Like calling sudden sadness a drive, as I point out in #1704. Nobody would call that a drive.

Is this maybe because you’re not a native speaker? I don’t mean to get personal here, I’m just trying to look for alternate explanations.

#1705 · Dennis Hackethal, 15 days ago · Criticism

A sudden feeling of sadness isn’t a drive. That makes no sense.

#1704 · Dennis Hackethal, 15 days ago · CriticismCriticized1 criticim(s)

An “urge” only arises when a Drive comes into conflict with something else

That’s not what an urge is. An urge is “a strong desire or impulse” according to my Dictionary app. A strong desire or impulse doesn’t imply a conflict.

#1703 · Dennis Hackethal, 15 days ago · Criticism

Since you agree, you should update #1679 accordingly.

#1702 · Dennis Hackethal, 15 days ago

For example, if your core value is that non‑coercion […]

There’s a word missing. Presumably ‘of’.

#1701 · Dennis Hackethal, 15 days ago · Criticism

My dictionary app says for ‘statement’ (bold emphasis mine):

the expression of an idea or opinion through something other than words: their humorous kitschiness makes a statement of serious wealth.

That’s the opposite of what you mean. Another reason not to introduce new terms.

#1700 · Dennis Hackethal, 15 days ago · Criticism

Statements are just that: statements. My dictionary app says a statement is (among other things) “a definite or clear expression of something in speech or writing”.

Some written words on a page or recordings of a voice don’t by themselves produce feelings. Expressions don’t produce feelings. If they’re just sitting on a page, they’re not even inside a mind where they could produce feelings.

A poem might move you to tears but it’s not literally the written words that move you to tears. It’s some knowledge inside you that does.

#1699 · Dennis Hackethal, 15 days ago · Criticism

Why is this a block quote?

#1698 · Dennis Hackethal, 15 days ago · Criticism

I'd rather remain anonymous. Don't worry, I'm not one of Elliot's goons. And I'll prove it to you.

#1697 · Ragnar Danneskjöld, 16 days ago

Superseded by #1695. This comment was generated automatically.

#1696 · Edwin de WitOP, 20 days ago · Criticism

I agree, I think the verb urge fits better than the verb compulsion here

#1695 · Edwin de WitOP, 20 days ago · revision of #1691

The part where I describe the conscious feeling or sensation may sound like an urge, but I use the term Drive because a Drive is not always consciously experienced. Drives are forms of unconscious knowledge that cause many automatic actions and effects, most of which occur without our awareness. An “urge” only arises when a Drive comes into conflict with something else. This is why I find Drive remains the more fitting term.

#1694 · Edwin de WitOP, 20 days ago · CriticismCriticized1 criticim(s)

I agree with what you said, but don't understand why it's a criticism or refutation of "Statements can also produce feelings". Values are largely explicit knowledge (what I call Statements), and they can produce feelings, as you say.

#1693 · Edwin de WitOP, 20 days ago · CriticismCriticized1 criticim(s)

If I were having a technical discussion with DD, Lulie, or you, I’d stick with those terms, since they’re the most technically accurate and you already understand them. However, when explaining the different types of knowledge to people who don’t quite grasp it yet or struggle to picture what it is, I’ve found that these labels help. These labels already have a meaning that is more commonly associated to sensations in the mind.

#1692 · Edwin de WitOP, 20 days ago · CriticismCriticized3 criticim(s)

I agree, I think urge fits better than compulsion here

#1691 · Edwin de WitOP, 20 days ago · Criticized1 criticim(s)

Relevant: #1689

#1690 · Dennis Hackethal, 27 days ago

Deutch

Deutsch

#1688 · Dennis Hackethal, 27 days ago · Criticism