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#5209·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoI suspect the issue is mental, because I sometimes feel tired getting into bed, then immediately feel progressively less tired, the longer I am in bed. The tiredness sometimes comes and goes, over the course of maybe one or two hours, before sleep comes. This suggests to me that my thinking is causing my wakefulness. I have observed this effect for as long as I can remember.
Becoming progressively less tired is compatible with physiological causes, such as those I mention in #5241.
#5210·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoIf I had a large dinner only two hours before attempting sleep, the trouble to fall asleep seems about the same as if I have an empty stomach, or any other degree of fullness on that continuum.
Diet isn't ruled out just by comparing a large dinner with an empty stomach before bed.
You've said that you often put off eating and struggle to eat as much as you intend to. If you're regularly under-eating or going long stretches without food, that may be keeping adrenaline and cortisol elevated into the evening, making it harder to wind down, fall asleep and stay asleep.
That could also explain why you're physically tired but still mentally alert and able to keep working at night.
#5188·Tyler Mills, 4 days agoI'm on PC, and alt+shift+hyphen does not work—but alt+0151 on numpad does... which is a very Windows way to do it, but I'll take it.
PC 😳
#5237·Dennis Hackethal, 1 day agoFound this article illuminating (emphasis mine):
The gradual loss of energy during the day produces a drive to sleep in order to restore that energy. This is known as the homeostatic sleep drive. If the homeostatic process were the only one involved, a person would wake up fully energized and then gradually wind down over the course of the day, like a battery losing power. This would mean an uneven level of alertness during the day, with dangerously low alertness in the afternoon and evening. To counterbalance this, the SCN also regulates alertness by what is known as the circadian process. As the day goes on, and energy winds down, the SCN compensates for this by sending a stronger alertness signal to the brain and body. This alertness signal reaches a peak in the two hours just before bedtime. This zone of maximum alertness is known as the “forbidden zone for sleep” since the alertness signal makes sleep nearly impossible during that zone. When the usual bedtime is reached, the SCN begins to turn down its alertness signal to allow the body to sleep.
The article is on “Non-24-Hour Sleep-Wake Disorder”. I’m obviously no doctor so don’t take anything I say as advice or diagnosis. But from what you’ve said, I wonder if you have that. I think I have the same issue.
The article goes into several causes you could look into. For example, it says exposure to blue light in the morning can help reset one’s internal clock. But that requires a special type of cell on the retina. If those cells don’t work properly, then as far as your internal clock is concerned, you’re effectively blind.
That said I still think you should go see a sleep doctor, Tyler.
Found this article illuminating (emphasis mine):
The gradual loss of energy during the day produces a drive to sleep in order to restore that energy. This is known as the homeostatic sleep drive. If the homeostatic process were the only one involved, a person would wake up fully energized and then gradually wind down over the course of the day, like a battery losing power. This would mean an uneven level of alertness during the day, with dangerously low alertness in the afternoon and evening. To counterbalance this, the SCN also regulates alertness by what is known as the circadian process. As the day goes on, and energy winds down, the SCN compensates for this by sending a stronger alertness signal to the brain and body. This alertness signal reaches a peak in the two hours just before bedtime. This zone of maximum alertness is known as the “forbidden zone for sleep” since the alertness signal makes sleep nearly impossible during that zone. When the usual bedtime is reached, the SCN begins to turn down its alertness signal to allow the body to sleep.
The article is on “Non-24-Hour Sleep-Wake Disorder”. I’m obviously no doctor so don’t take anything I say as advice or diagnosis. But from what you’ve said, I wonder if you have that. I think I have the same issue.
The article goes into several causes you could look into. For example, it says exposure to blue light in the morning can help reset one’s internal clock. But that requires a special type of cell on the retina. If those cells don’t work properly, then as far as your internal clock is concerned, you’re effectively blind.
#5214·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoDaytime noise in any kind of city is hard to avoid. One can try to optimize their living situation to avoid, but that's not always doable. Earplugs and noise-machines can help, but have never been totally foolproof for me.
You may be overstating the difficulty. IIRC you like rural America. Finding a quiet place to live should be doable, even in cities but especially in rural places. (Believe it or not I once stayed at an Airbnb in Tahoe that was TOO quiet to sleep. It was so quiet it kinda freaked me out. And that’s saying something because I love quiet.)
Have you traveled internationally? I’m thinking specifically of flying west for a large distance.
For example, if I fly to the West coast from central Europe and I land at 12pm say. That’s 9 hours behind Europe. And then I try to stay up until 10pm or so. That’s nearly impossible. I’ve fallen asleep with the lights on.
Would be interesting if you still lay awake for an hour or so even when severely jet lagged.
#5225·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoInteresting. But I would guess it only works well for constant sounds. The sensor has to read the waveform to create one that cancels it. Will not do much for short impulses of sound, which are the main offender (my current neighbors are okay, for the record).
Isn’t this a criticism?
#5204·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoTime-release melatonin has solved the backfire problem for me. But I don't want to be dependent on it forever to get a good 8 hours.
What’s wrong with using melatonin indefinitely?
AFAIK it creates no physical dependence, you don’t build a tolerance, and it’s cheap. What’s not to love?
#5204·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoTime-release melatonin has solved the backfire problem for me. But I don't want to be dependent on it forever to get a good 8 hours.
Shouldn’t this be a criticism?
#5230·Dennis Hackethal, 1 day agoCould you do meal prep for the week? Have meals ready in the freezer so you don’t need to cook every day.
Something I made the other day, recipe in the caption :) https://www.instagram.com/p/Db2DzFplBXq/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
#5221·Tyler MillsOP revised 2 days agoI also clearly procrastinate preparing food and eating, almost every day, conflicting with caloric intake goals. For a few years in childhood I had an anxiety disorder around eating. I suspect some residual hangup from that, but hard to say. Relates to the sleep trouble..?
Could you do meal prep for the week? Have meals ready in the freezer so you don’t need to cook every day.
#5216·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoI notice a tendency to find more things to do (such as research questions) leading up to bedtime, similar to how I miraculously find more tasks to do (such as taking out the trash) when trying to leave the house for an appointment (I have a lifelong habit of running late as well; I suspect a relation between these two).
The cause of procrastination is a conflict between preferences. Part of you wants to take out the trash, another doesn’t. The solution is a common preference: a new option both parts of you prefer to their respective initial position.
Can you identify those parts within you?
Try brainstorming many new options on V. With any luck, you’ll find a new option both parts of you want without delay.
#5215·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoThis perpetual creep of waking time will mean one's circadian rhythm is messed up, inverting every several days. (Being out of sync with sunlight is a health concern.)
Then again, so is not sleeping…
#5213·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoThis perpetual 2-hour creep is not compatible with the obligations of life, such as getting to work by 9am every weekday.
But you don’t have that obligation right now, right?
#5224·Dennis Hackethal, 2 days agoThere’s a company that makes a cube that you put in your bedroom and it creates a sound barrier. Like a noise canceling perimeter. It’s like noise canceling headphones except you don’t have to wear anything. I forget the name of the company but worth searching for it online. I remember being excited about it because I had the exact same idea and was stoked to see somebody actually doing it.
Hmm, I'm skeptical of the physics, and a cursory search supports. Not feasible for the same reason that holograms aren't (as depicted in movies): waves won't stop midair, unless they're "standing waves," which you can't do much with. Comment #5225 may also apply.
#5223·Dennis Hackethal, 2 days agoJust stumbled upon this tip in my Insta feed to deal with noisy neighbors: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Db4gheyx9WP/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
Apparently you can buy a device that cancels out vibrations in your walls. Not sure I’m understanding exactly how it works.
Interesting. But I would guess it only works well for constant sounds. The sensor has to read the waveform to create one that cancels it. Will not do much for short impulses of sound, which are the main offender (my current neighbors are okay, for the record).
There’s a company that makes a cube that you put in your bedroom and it creates a sound barrier. Like a noise canceling perimeter. It’s like noise canceling headphones except you don’t have to wear anything. I forget the name of the company but worth searching for it online. I remember being excited about it because I had the exact same idea and was stoked to see somebody actually doing it.
Just stumbled upon this tip in my Insta feed to deal with noisy neighbors: https://www.instagram.com/reel/Db4gheyx9WP/?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ==
Apparently you can buy a device that cancels out vibrations in your walls. Not sure I’m understanding exactly how it works.
I also clearly procrastinate preparing food and eating, almost every day, conflicting with caloric intake goals. I had an anxiety disorder around eating in childhood for a few years. I suspect some residual hangup from that, but hard to say. Relates to the sleep trouble..?
I also clearly procrastinate preparing food and eating, almost every day, conflicting with caloric intake goals. For a few years in childhood I had an anxiety disorder around eating. I suspect some residual hangup from that, but hard to say. Relates to the sleep trouble..?
#5216·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoI notice a tendency to find more things to do (such as research questions) leading up to bedtime, similar to how I miraculously find more tasks to do (such as taking out the trash) when trying to leave the house for an appointment (I have a lifelong habit of running late as well; I suspect a relation between these two).
I also clearly procrastinate preparing food and eating, almost every day, conflicting with caloric intake goals. I had an anxiety disorder around eating in childhood for a few years. I suspect some residual hangup from that, but hard to say. Relates to the sleep trouble..?
#5218·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoWhen this happens, the advice is to get out of bed and do something else (without bright or blue light) for a while.
Have done. Does not seem to have a strong effect on the "timer." Still may take an hour to fall sleep after getting back into bed. As if a certain amount of time in bed (certain amount of suffering, or punishment?) needs to pass before sleep will come.
#5217·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoI notice a distinct feeling of boredom after a certain amount of time in bed.
When this happens, the advice is to get out of bed and do something else (without bright or blue light) for a while.
#5209·Tyler MillsOP, 2 days agoI suspect the issue is mental, because I sometimes feel tired getting into bed, then immediately feel progressively less tired, the longer I am in bed. The tiredness sometimes comes and goes, over the course of maybe one or two hours, before sleep comes. This suggests to me that my thinking is causing my wakefulness. I have observed this effect for as long as I can remember.
I notice a distinct feeling of boredom after a certain amount of time in bed.