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  Tyler Mills commented on idea #4737.

(2) The rendering is caused by the running of some number of programs.

#4737​·​Tyler MillsOP, 3 days ago

(3) The programs rendering the apple imagery must be looping until stopped, since they could not have advance knowledge of when the stimulus stops.

  Tyler Mills commented on idea #4736.

(1) During the entire 5 seconds, your mind renders the image of the apple.

#4736​·​Tyler MillsOP, 3 days ago

(2) The rendering is caused by the running of some number of programs.

  Tyler Mills started a discussion titled ‘Can qualia be separated from personhood? ’.

Can a program which is not a person constitute an experience?

Imagine you are in a pitch black room. Before your eyes, a spotlight illuminates an apple for 5 seconds before darkness returns. Among other things, your mind will render the image of the apple for the 5 seconds, then it will not (afterimages aside). Assume the physical stimulus is identical for the whole 5 seconds.

Itemized discussion below.

The discussion starts with idea #4736.

(1) During the entire 5 seconds, your mind renders the image of the apple.

  Dennis Hackethal posted idea #4735.

“What do people misunderstand most about crystal meth addiction?” https://www.quora.com/What-do-people-misunderstand-most-about-crystal-meth-addiction/answer/Notmy-Realname-133

Interesting read.

  Dennis Hackethal criticized idea #4730.

Not if the criticism is clear and concise. That should be incentivized somehow.

#4730​·​Moritz Wallawitsch, 5 days ago

A discussion can get long even if each criticism is concise.

  Dennis Hackethal addressed criticism #4732.

why?

#4732​·​Moritz Wallawitsch revised 5 days ago

Someone who recently joined made a bunch of low-quality posts in a short amount of time.

  Moritz Wallawitsch revised idea #4731 and marked it as a criticism.

why?

why?

  Moritz Wallawitsch commented on criticism #4614.

Need rate limiting for new users to prevent excessive posting.

#4614​·​Dennis HackethalOP, 19 days ago

why?

  Moritz Wallawitsch commented on criticism #4727.

Need summaries at top of discussions. Could be AI generated.

#4727​·​Dennis HackethalOP, 5 days ago

Not if the criticism is clear and concise. That should be incentivized somehow.

  Moritz Wallawitsch posted criticism #4729.

A discussion needs to be more skimmable via one or both of these:
1. hide long posts behind "read more" button
2. collapse critique chains/threads behind a "reply more" button

  Moritz Wallawitsch posted criticism #4728.

The UI needs to be more minimalistic. Too many buttons to click on. Needs clear primary action on every screen.

  Dennis Hackethal posted criticism #4727.

Need summaries at top of discussions. Could be AI generated.

  Tyler Mills criticized idea #4684.

Since evolution created genetic knowledge from nothing, it can be said to have the same "narrow creativity" as AI. The confusion over whether AI "is creative" can be resolved by saying that it is, but only narrowly (like evolution), and that the creativity defining people is universal, not limited to any domain. AI creates knowledge in domains it was designed for; AGI can create knowledge in all possible domains, each of which it designs itself.

#4684​·​Tyler MillsOP, 11 days ago

Criticized per #4718: AIs are not "narrowly creative"; there is only creativity in the binary, universal sense, per Deutsch.

  Tyler Mills commented on criticism #4718.

Move 37 was not new knowledge. It was the winning choice in that situation before the AI ever existed, because it was deducible from the game's rules and the current board state. It was implicit knowledge, already contained in the system at that time. AlphaGo made it explicit, by finding it, like a search engine, but did not create it. If you calculate the trillionth digit of pi, you haven't created new knowledge, at least not in any sense we should mean. You have simply revealed a value that was already fixed by a definition.

The fact that Move 37 wasn't explicitly in the training data or the programmers is irrelevant to its status as knowledge. This is true for pi, and for all content created by AI at the time of this writing.

#4718​·​Tyler MillsOP, 7 days ago

The definition of fitness that rendered Move 37 the best choice originated outside the system.

  Tyler Mills commented on criticism #4720.

If the human made Move 37 for the same reason as AlphaGo, it would not be creative. Such moves are creative when humans make them because they are not deducing them (they can't due to practical limitations). If something can be deduced, it is not creative. Creativity is the conjecture of a new structure which is not derivable/deducible/implicit via existing rules of inference. All AI-generated art is implicit in the training data and model design in the same sense, so is not being made via creativity.

#4720​·​Tyler MillsOP, 7 days ago

This highlights the core mystery of AGI/creativity: if it is the creation of something which cannot be deduced from existing rules (yet is still helpful, hard-to-vary, knowledge-bearing, etc.), how can it be programmed? In a sense it cannot, as Deutsch writes: "...what distinguishes human brains from all other physical systems is qualitatively different from all other functionalities, and cannot be specified in the way that all other attributes of computer programs can be. It cannot be programmed by any of the techniques that suffice for writing any other type of program." [https://aeon.co/essays/how-close-are-we-to-creating-artificial-intelligence]

  Tyler Mills addressed criticism #4719.

If there had been no AlphaGo and no Move 37, and a human had made that move, as they have similar moves, it would no doubt be called creative genius (as similar moves have). Isn't the above a double standard?

#4719​·​Tyler MillsOP, 7 days ago

If the human made Move 37 for the same reason as AlphaGo, it would not be creative. Such moves are creative when humans make them because they are not deducing them (they can't due to practical limitations). If something can be deduced, it is not creative. Creativity is the conjecture of a new structure which is not derivable/deducible/implicit via existing rules of inference. All AI-generated art is implicit in the training data and model design in the same sense, so is not being made via creativity.

  Tyler Mills addressed criticism #4718.

Move 37 was not new knowledge. It was the winning choice in that situation before the AI ever existed, because it was deducible from the game's rules and the current board state. It was implicit knowledge, already contained in the system at that time. AlphaGo made it explicit, by finding it, like a search engine, but did not create it. If you calculate the trillionth digit of pi, you haven't created new knowledge, at least not in any sense we should mean. You have simply revealed a value that was already fixed by a definition.

The fact that Move 37 wasn't explicitly in the training data or the programmers is irrelevant to its status as knowledge. This is true for pi, and for all content created by AI at the time of this writing.

#4718​·​Tyler MillsOP, 7 days ago

If there had been no AlphaGo and no Move 37, and a human had made that move, as they have similar moves, it would no doubt be called creative genius (as similar moves have). Isn't the above a double standard?

  Tyler Mills criticized idea #4683.

AIs have created output that is not only novel, but seems to constitute new knowledge (resilient information), such as the famous Move 37 from AlphaGo. That is new knowledge because the move was not present in the training data explicitly, nor did the designers construct it.

#4683​·​Tyler MillsOP, 11 days ago

Move 37 was not new knowledge. It was the winning choice in that situation before the AI ever existed, because it was deducible from the game's rules and the current board state. It was implicit knowledge, already contained in the system at that time. AlphaGo made it explicit, by finding it, like a search engine, but did not create it. If you calculate the trillionth digit of pi, you haven't created new knowledge, at least not in any sense we should mean. You have simply revealed a value that was already fixed by a definition.

The fact that Move 37 wasn't explicitly in the training data or the programmers is irrelevant to its status as knowledge. This is true for pi, and for all content created by AI at the time of this writing.

  Tyler Mills revised idea #4685.

Move 37 was not explicitly present in the training data, nor designed by the programmers, and is extremely hard to vary (Deutsch's criterion for good explanations). Was the move present implicitly in the design of the system and/or the training data? Or inexplicitly? Does either of these mean the discovery of the move was non-creative?

Move 37 was not explicitly present in the training data, nor designed by the programmers, and is extremely hard to vary (Deutsch's criterion for good explanations). Was the move present implicitly in the design of the system and/or the training data? Or inexplicitly? Do either of these mean the discovery of the move was non-creative?

  Dennis Hackethal revised criticism #2134.

If you don’t have any counter-criticisms, how could the criticisms not be decisive?

If you don’t have any counter-criticisms, how could the criticisms not be decisive?

  Dennis Hackethal addressed criticism #2138.

What reason could you have to ignore the pending criticisms and adopt [the criticized idea] anyway?

Maybe the criticisms aren’t decisive.

#2138​·​Dennis HackethalOP revised 6 months ago

To arrive at that conclusion, you’d first need some counter-criticism anyway.

  Dennis Hackethal addressed criticism #2138.

What reason could you have to ignore the pending criticisms and adopt [the criticized idea] anyway?

Maybe the criticisms aren’t decisive.

#2138​·​Dennis HackethalOP revised 6 months ago

Just how ‘tiny’ is a criticism then? By reference to what principle or measure?

  Dennis Hackethal addressed criticism #2138.

What reason could you have to ignore the pending criticisms and adopt [the criticized idea] anyway?

Maybe the criticisms aren’t decisive.

#2138​·​Dennis HackethalOP revised 6 months ago

To incorporate some notion of decisiveness or severity, we need to be prepared to program that into our decision-making tool. I’m not aware that anyone knows how to programmatically determine the severity or decisiveness of a criticism, and I suspect outsourcing it to the user would result in the same unintended behavior we saw with the sliders for hard to vary.