Dedham, Massachusetts · May 1981

“Nature Isn’t Classical, Dammit”

Portrait of Richard Feynman
Richard FeynmanPhotograph, 1959 · California Institute of Technology

Can a computer simulate nature? At a conference on the physics of computation, held in May 1981 at a country house of MIT’s outside Boston, the American theoretical physicist Richard Feynman points out a problem. To describe particles that can each be in one of two states, quantum theory needs a number for every combination of their states: 4 numbers for two particles, 8 for three, and twice as many for every particle added. For a few hundred particles, a classical computer – one that, like every computer so far, works with bits that are each either 0 or 1 – would need more numbers than there are atoms in the universe.

How many numbers a classical computer needs to keep track of particles that each can be in two states: every particle added doubles them, so a few dozen particles are more than a laptop can hold, and 266 need more numbers than there are atoms in the observable universe numbers to keep track of
Drag the slider to add particles. Each one doubles the numbers a classical computer needs to keep track of them, so the square splits in two, across and then down, until its parts are too fine to draw. At 16 bytes a number, a laptop’s memory holds the numbers for 30 particles. 266 would need more numbers than there are atoms in the observable universe.

So Feynman proposes a different kind of computer, made of quantum parts, that would behave the way nature does. At the end of his talk, he says he isn’t happy with analyses that use only classical physics, “because nature isn’t classical, dammit, and if you want to make a simulation of nature, you’d better make it quantum mechanical.”

He isn’t the only one. The American physicist Paul Benioff, at Argonne National Laboratory near Chicago, has already shown on paper that a computer could run by quantum mechanics alone: he worked out how a Turing machine built of quantum parts would carry out its steps, one after another, without losing energy. Some had thought that impossible even in principle. In Moscow, in a short book published in 1980, the Russian mathematician Yuri Manin has suggested, with an argument much like Feynman’s, that quantum automata might do what classical ones can’t. Few in the West notice.

Idea by Paul Benioff​·​#5897

A computer can run by the laws of quantum mechanics alone. A Turing machine can be built of quantum parts that carry it through its steps one after another, as an isolated system, without losing energy.

Idea by Richard Feynman​·​#5898

A classical computer can’t simulate quantum physics efficiently: the numbers it needs double with every particle added, so a few hundred particles would take more numbers than there are atoms in the universe. To simulate nature, build a computer of quantum parts that behaves as nature does.

The state of the discussion

Benioff’s quantum computer and Feynman’s quantum simulator have no pending criticisms, so they’re rationally adoptable.

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Sources:

  • Benioff, “The Computer as a Physical System”, Journal of Statistical Physics 22 (1980), 563–591
  • Feynman, “Simulating Physics with Computers”, International Journal of Theoretical Physics 21 (1982), 467–488
  • Manin, Vychislimoe i nevychislimoe (Moscow, 1980)

Researched and written with the help of AI, from the sources named. AI can make mistakes. Veritula doesn’t claim perfect historical accuracy; the sources are there to check against.

The full discussion

Can One Machine Do It All?

Dennis Hackethal started this discussion about 2 hours ago.

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Babbage designed a machine that could carry out any calculation, and Lovelace saw that it could do far more than arithmetic. Turing explained why one machine can do the work of every other, and Deutsch argued that it has to be a quantum computer.


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The discussion as it was in May 1981. Chronicle discussions are read-only. Jump to the present
Gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz’s avatar
Gottfried Wilhelm LeibnizHistorical profile​·​#5870​·​September 8, 1930​·​AI-assisted
2nd of 2 versions​·​revised by David HilbertHistorical profile

Every question of mathematics can be answered: there is no “we will not know.” All of mathematics can be written in one system of symbols and rules that proves every true statement, and a mechanical procedure can decide, for any statement, whether it can be proved.

Criticized4
Kurt Gödel’s avatar
Kurt GödelHistorical profile​·​#5872​·​September 8, 1930​·​AI-assisted

In any consistent system of rules strong enough for arithmetic, there are true statements that the rules can neither prove nor disprove. So no one system can answer every question of mathematics.

Criticism of #5870
Alfred Tarski’s avatar
Alfred TarskiHistorical profile​·​#5873​·​1933​·​AI-assisted

Truth for a language rich enough for arithmetic can be defined only in a richer language, never within the language itself. So no one system of symbols and rules can even say which of its own statements are true: there’s no universal criterion of truth.

Criticism of #5870
Alonzo Church’s avatar
Alonzo ChurchHistorical profile​·​#5874​·​May 28, 1936​·​AI-assisted

Some problems can’t be solved by any effective calculation: I’ve found one in elementary number theory. So no mechanical procedure can decide, for every statement of logic, whether it can be proved.

Criticism of #5870
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5875​·​May 28, 1936​·​AI-assisted

No machine can decide, for every statement of logic, whether it can be proved. If one could, it could decide whether any machine ever prints a 0, and a machine that asked it that about itself could be made to do the opposite.

Criticism of #5870
Charles Babbage’s avatar
Charles BabbageHistorical profile​·​#5865​·​June 14, 1822​·​AI-assisted

Mathematical tables can be worked out and printed by machinery. Almost any table can be built up by adding differences, and gears can add, so a machine of number wheels can do it, without the mistakes that human computers and typesetters make.

Charles Babbage’s avatar
Charles BabbageHistorical profile​·​#5876​·​May 28, 1936​·​AI-assisted
3rd of 3 versions​·​revised by Alan TuringHistorical profile

Whatever a person can compute by following rules, a simple machine can compute, reading and writing symbols on a tape. And a single machine, given a description of any other on its tape, can do whatever that machine does: one universal machine can compute anything that can be computed at all.

Ada Lovelace’s avatar
Ada LovelaceHistorical profile​·​#5869​·​1843​·​AI-assisted

The Analytical Engine can’t originate anything. It can do whatever we know how to order it to perform, and follow our reasoning, but it can’t anticipate any truths we haven’t worked out ourselves.

Criticized3
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5878​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

Machines will be able to think. The question “Can machines think?” is too meaningless to deserve discussion as it stands. Ask instead whether a machine can play the imitation game, passing for a person in typed conversation. In about fifty years, computers will play it so well that an average interrogator won’t have more than a 70 percent chance of telling them apart after five minutes of questioning, and one will be able to speak of machines thinking without expecting to be contradicted.

Criticism of #5869 Battle-tested
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5881​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

The theological objection: thinking is a function of man’s immortal soul. God has given an immortal soul to every man and woman, but not to any other animal or to machines. So no animal or machine can think.

Criticism of #5878Criticized1
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5882​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

That restricts the omnipotence of the Almighty. Couldn’t He confer a soul on an elephant, or on a machine, if He saw fit? Besides, theological arguments have often failed before: in Galileo’s time, Bible verses were held to refute Copernicus.

Criticism of #5881
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5883​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

The heads-in-the-sand objection: the consequences of machines thinking would be too dreadful. Let us hope and believe that they can’t.

Criticism of #5878Criticized1
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5884​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

That’s a hope, not an argument, and it isn’t substantial enough to require refutation. Consolation would be more appropriate.

Criticism of #5883
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5885​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

The mathematical objection: results of mathematical logic, such as Gödel’s theorem, show that every machine has limits. There are questions it will answer wrongly, or not at all, however long it’s given. The human mind has no such limits.

Criticism of #5878Criticized1
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5886​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

That the human mind has no such limits has only been stated, without any sort of proof. We give wrong answers too often ourselves to be pleased at the machines’ fallibility. And there may be people cleverer than any given machine, but then there may be other machines cleverer again.

Criticism of #5885
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5887​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

The argument from consciousness: a machine would have to feel, not just act. As the English neurosurgeon Geoffrey Jefferson put it in 1949: “Not until a machine can write a sonnet or compose a concerto because of thoughts and emotions felt, and not by the chance fall of symbols, could we agree that machine equals brain.”

Criticism of #5878Criticized1
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5888​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

Then the only way to be sure that a machine thinks is to be the machine, and the only way to know that a man thinks is to be that man. That’s solipsism. Instead of arguing over it, we have the polite convention that everyone thinks. And if a machine could defend its sonnet’s wording under questioning as well as a person can, I don’t think anyone would call that an easy contrivance.

Criticism of #5887
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5889​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

Arguments from various disabilities: machines may do all you say, but you’ll never make one be kind, have a sense of humor, tell right from wrong, make mistakes, fall in love, enjoy strawberries and cream, learn from experience, or do something really new.

Criticism of #5878Criticized1
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5890​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

No support is usually offered for these claims. They generalize from the machines people have seen, which are ugly, each built for a narrow purpose, and able to do little else. Many of those limits come from their tiny memories, and computers’ memories are growing.

Criticism of #5889
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5891​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

The argument from continuity in the nervous system: the nervous system isn’t a discrete-state machine. A tiny change in an impulse reaching a neuron can make a large difference to the impulse going out. So a discrete-state machine can’t be expected to mimic it.

Criticism of #5878Criticized1
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5892​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

A discrete-state machine is different from a continuous one, but in the imitation game, the interrogator can’t take advantage of the difference. A digital computer couldn’t predict exactly what a continuous machine, like a differential analyzer, would answer, but it could give the right sort of answer.

Criticism of #5891
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5893​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

The argument from informality of behavior: no set of rules can say what a person should do in every conceivable circumstance. If people followed a definite set of rules of conduct, they’d be no better than machines. There are no such rules, so people can’t be machines.

Criticism of #5878Criticized1
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5894​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

That confuses rules of conduct, which we can know and act on, with laws of behavior, the laws of nature that govern our bodies. We can be sure there are no complete rules of conduct, but never that there are no complete laws of behavior: we can never say we’ve searched enough. Even a small program of mine on the Manchester computer can’t be predicted from its replies.

Criticism of #5893
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5895​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

The argument from extra-sensory perception: the statistical evidence for telepathy is overwhelming. In the imitation game, a telepathic person could name the card in the interrogator’s hand far more often than a machine guessing at random, and so be told apart from it.

Criticism of #5878Criticized1
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5896​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

Then the test needs tightening: put the competitors in a telepathy-proof room.

Criticism of #5895
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5879​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

A machine can be made to learn. Instead of programming it to act like an adult mind, program it like a child’s, and educate it. Its teachers won’t know quite what is going on inside it, so it won’t only do what we know how to order it to do.

Criticism of #5869
Alan Turing’s avatar
Alan TuringHistorical profile​·​#5880​·​October 1950​·​AI-assisted

Machines take me by surprise with great frequency. To think that nothing new can come from following given rules is to assume that as soon as we know a fact, all its consequences spring to mind at once. They don’t: working them out is real work.

Criticism of #5869
Paul Benioff’s avatar
Paul BenioffHistorical profile​·​#5897​·​May 1981​·​AI-assisted

A computer can run by the laws of quantum mechanics alone. A Turing machine can be built of quantum parts that carry it through its steps one after another, as an isolated system, without losing energy.

Richard Feynman’s avatar
Richard FeynmanHistorical profile​·​#5898​·​May 1981​·​AI-assisted

A classical computer can’t simulate quantum physics efficiently: the numbers it needs double with every particle added, so a few hundred particles would take more numbers than there are atoms in the universe. To simulate nature, build a computer of quantum parts that behaves as nature does.

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